Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => General FSP Discussion => Topic started by: nobanana on December 29, 2006, 05:57:34 pm

Title: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 29, 2006, 05:57:34 pm
Ok, I'm all for the fsp, and I'm seriously considering joining the 20k people who will move to NH, but what's with the computer callers calling people up to convince them to sign up for the first 1000?

Computer calls seriously tick people off, especially repeated computer calls.  It creates ill will.  It seriously bugs me anyway.

Someome calling themselves Mark Ets (or Mark Ecks, or Narkets maybe) claiming to represent the free state project and the first 1000 has computer called me both yesterday and today.  (941-356-3562)

Could it be some group trying to block the fsp?  Just before the midterm elections, the republican party ran a series of computer calls pretending to be the democrats just to tick off voters who were on the fence.

Mark, if you are on this site, please don't call people this way.  Aside from generating ill will, you also risk someone trying to disconnect your computer because they need to make an emergency call.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: error on December 29, 2006, 11:32:42 pm
Mark Edge is a real person, and he has the flu, so he sounds a little odd.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Denis Goddard on December 30, 2006, 12:26:19 am
I would be surprised if it was a computer call... probably he screwed up and called you twice by accident.
I accidentally called a person on my list twice, fortunately they were good-natured about it.

Cut Mark a break... he's been making *hundreds* of phone calls over the past few days, trying to get just a few dozen more F1K signers
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Power Penguin on December 30, 2006, 02:20:32 am
I got it too I'm already F1K though someone should have filtered the call lists. I talked to Mark on the phone a couple of weeks ago about FTL advertising and he talked about it. We're at 930 right now with two days left. Keep the pressure on we're almost there!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: error on December 30, 2006, 09:04:22 am
Mark talked about it on Free Talk Live last night. Apparently there were some automated calls, but they had some technical problem and the message was cut off.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 30, 2006, 10:52:05 am
Ok, I'm all for the fsp, and I'm seriously considering joining the 20k people who will move to NH, but what's with the computer callers calling people up to convince them to sign up for the first 1000?

Computer calls seriously tick people off, especially repeated computer calls.  It creates ill will.  It seriously bugs me anyway.

Someome calling themselves Mark Ets (or Mark Ecks, or Narkets maybe) claiming to represent the free state project and the first 1000 has computer called me both yesterday and today.  (941-356-3562)

Could it be some group trying to block the fsp?  Just before the midterm elections, the republican party ran a series of computer calls pretending to be the democrats just to tick off voters who were on the fence.

Mark, if you are on this site, please don't call people this way.  Aside from generating ill will, you also risk someone trying to disconnect your computer because they need to make an emergency call.

For the few people who will be offended, it's well worth it.  Fact is, we don't have enough volunteers to make 5,000 real calls.  I doubt you stepped up, as most people have not.  Congrats to Mark for taking the initiative and making this happen!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: bruehound on December 30, 2006, 11:30:03 am
As one who has been making hundreds of F1K phone calls, I can report the vast majority of people I have contacted have truly appreciated hearing from the FSP. It re-ignites the excitement they felt when they signed onto the project.

Regarding the use of automated phone messages-- there is a reason political campaigns use this communication technique cycle after cycle. If used deferentially, they are a very efficient and effective type of direct communication. We have a natural tendency to over-rely on electronic based communications but automated messages are proven to inspire action and are cost effective in the absence of volunteers.

I appreciate the opinions of those who find this type of call intrusive but we are only consuming a quick 20-30 seconds of an individual’s time and providing time-sensitive, actionable information.  Intentions are good.

A libertarian understanding of a market economy knows the world is driven by marginal activity. We are simply trying to capture those margins and meet a goal that will change the world.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: RichW on December 30, 2006, 11:40:24 am
For the few people who will be offended, it's well worth it.  Fact is, we don't have enough volunteers to make 5,000 real calls.  I doubt you stepped up, as most people have not.  Congrats to Mark for taking the initiative and making this happen!

When I joined the Yahoo group and asked for some phone numbers,  Sandy replied that all of the phone numbers had been distributed.

Am I to now understand that there are still phone calls to be made?  Are there 2 groups making calls?  The pledge is almost over.  But, if there are still participants that have not been called, let us know.  Post Mark's contact info here.  Some of us may have time to make some calls today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 11:53:22 am
As one who has been making hundreds of F1K phone calls, I can report the vast majority of people I have contacted have truly appreciated hearing from the FSP. It re-ignites the excitement they felt when they signed onto the project.

Regarding the use of automated phone messages-- there is a reason political campaigns use this communication technique cycle after cycle. If used deferentially, they are a very efficient and effective type of direct communication. We have a natural tendency to over-rely on electronic based communications but automated messages are proven to inspire action and are cost effective in the absence of volunteers.

I appreciate the opinions of those who find this type of call intrusive but we are only consuming a quick 20-30 seconds of an individual’s time and providing time-sensitive, actionable information.  Intentions are good.

A libertarian understanding of a market economy knows the world is driven by marginal activity. We are simply trying to capture those margins and meet a goal that will change the world.


Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week ;D

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 12:15:42 pm
Holy f**K, this was annoying.

I'm really, REALLY angry about it.  Between me and my husband, we've gotten FOUR bullshit robotcalls.

I'm sorry to see the FSP has sunk this low.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 12:25:14 pm
From: Elizabeth McKinstry
To: info@freestateproject.org, vswearingen@freestateproject.org, scobb@freestateproject.org, jsorens@freestateproject.org, mstraus@freestateproject.org, bsullivan@freestateproject.org, jmaltz@freestateproject.org, spierre@freestateproject.org
Cc: Elizabeth McKinstry <emckinstry@gmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2006 12:23 PM
Subject: Robotcalls - REMOVE US FROM YOUR LIST

Dear Everyone -

I can't believe the FSP would stoop to something as annoying and
universally hated as robotcalls.

Between me and my husband, we have received FOUR calls in the last two days.

I don't know whom you gave our numbers to, but if it's outside the FSP
and a violation of the privacy policy, you can bet your ass I'm going
to make a complaint to the appropriate agency.

In the meantime, REMOVE OUR ADDRESSES AND PHONE NUMBERS FROM YOUR
MARKETING LISTS.

We keep up with what's going on with the FSP (i.e., nothing remotely
like what we pledged to), and we don't need your unsolicited mail in
our mailbox or our voicemail.

Nice job, folks.

With sincere anger,

Elizabeth McKinstry and [my husband]
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: MengerFan on December 30, 2006, 12:57:09 pm
You've got to be kidding me. What is so offensive about getting a phone call from someone you provided your phone number to?

If answering the telephone a couple of times gets those last few sign-ups for the first 1000, why are you not happy about it?

I am going to apologize for the malfunction which made the message cut off early halfway through on Thursday night. That was my bad.

On a personal level, I am rather offended that someone would get so bent out of shape over the few seconds they were inconvenienced by trying to get the last few signers at the very last minute, when someone else incurred the expense of money and time to retool their hardware and software to make all of those contacts possible.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: freedomroad on December 30, 2006, 12:59:06 pm
Elizabeth does have a point.  Using a robot to make calls is spam and should not be done.  However, everyone gets tons of spam and it a very small deal to most people.  Do I have a lower opinion of whoever led this happen, sure.  Do I really care, not really.  Will I forget about this in a few weeks, sure.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: MengerFan on December 30, 2006, 01:08:13 pm
Spam refers to unsolicited contact. If you provide your number to someone, and they use it to contact you, then it is not unsolicited.

Spam would occur if the FSP provided your number to the LP and they used the number to contact you.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 01:12:40 pm
Robotcalls are spam.

I don't even know how the FSP *has* my husband's cell phone number.

When I signed up for the FSP, robotcalls would never have been considered.  *I* certainly never considered that providing a phone number would include getting robotcalls that cost ME money (since we are a wireless household, we don't have landlines).

Politicians who robotcall me don't get my vote.  Organizations that robotcall me don't get my money.  The FSP should be ashamed of itself.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 01:17:02 pm
"Spam would occur if the FSP provided your number to the LP and they used the number to contact you."

As far as I'm concerned, privacy has been breached.  Who knows who has my phone number and address info now?  Sounds like lists have been distributed to everyone and their brother for this bullsh*t marketing push.

UNACCEPTABLE.

And don't you DARE accuse me of not giving time and energy to the FSP, you self-righteous little man.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Ruger Mason on December 30, 2006, 01:24:34 pm
You've got to be kidding me.  The FSP asks people to turn over their lives, sell their homes, take their kids out of school, quit their jobs and establish it all over again in another state hundreds of miles away, and there's bitching about a 30 second phone call to the point of threatening to call the government in on it.  Sorry for the inconvenience, but if you're that miffed by something so minor, then your understanding of the FSP's mission and the gravity of what it asks has been knocked way out of perspective.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Rocketman on December 30, 2006, 01:30:13 pm
She almost seems upset we're succeeding without her.   ???

Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 01:32:52 pm
She almost seems upset we're succeeding without her.   ???


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, succeeding, right.

You're going to get to that 20,000 - um, when?  With real signup numbers, please?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 01:34:08 pm
You've got to be kidding me.  The FSP asks people to turn over their lives, sell their homes, take their kids out of school, quit their jobs and establish it all over again in another state hundreds of miles away, and there's bitching about a 30 second phone call to the point of threatening to call the government in on it.  Sorry for the inconvenience, but if you're that miffed by something so minor, then your understanding of the FSP's mission and the gravity of what it asks has been knocked way out of perspective.

I know INTIMATELY what the FSP is asking.  I also take privacy VERY seriously, and therefore handing out my phone number to god knows who for spam calls is both unnecessary and offensive.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Rocketman on December 30, 2006, 01:42:33 pm
She almost seems upset we're succeeding without her.   ???


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, succeeding, right.

You're going to get to that 20,000 - um, when?  With real signup numbers, please?

Nobody in New Hampshire gives a damn about 20,000, Elizabeth.  The ~175 who beat me to NH were all the incentive I needed, and I've done more actual winning here in 7 months (read about the Joel Winters campaign?) than I could have imagined in 10 years if I'd stayed in Kentucky.  Our lives are better here, and we feel like we're doing our part for the future of human liberty.  And we are being effective.  If that sounds like failure to you, crawl back into your cave.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 01:47:01 pm
Nobody in New Hampshire gives a damn about 20,000, Elizabeth. 

That is the stated goal and purpose of the FSP.  If the FSP hasn't met it, and won't meet it, it's a failure.

You're happy in NH - great.  The FSP is still a failure.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Rocketman on December 30, 2006, 01:51:58 pm
If the New Hampshire freedom movement succeeds, the FSP achieves its ultimate goal.  Did you join for the excitement of getting signups or for the promise of liberty?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 02:12:42 pm
Let me also clarify - aside from the privacy breach, had a live person called, it wouldn't have been half as offensive.  Robotcalls are lazy, and they're spam.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: MengerFan on December 30, 2006, 02:35:07 pm
This anger is seriously unwarranted. Only phone numbers were provided, with no names. These numbers were used to make calls for the FSP, not any other organization. These numbers are destroyed and returned to the FSP with the results of the calls - contacted, no longer in service, etc.

This again is not spam, by definition. If anyone, such as yourself, was contacted in error, then I am sure the FSP as well as myself do apologize without sarcasm. The intention was only to call individuals who willingly provided their numbers for use by FSP purposes. Any other contact was unintentional, qualifies as bona fide error by the letter of the law as well as by most reasonable persons.

Clearly you are disgruntled with the FSP for other reasons. I would ask that you not take out unrelated frustrations on any organization for employing an efficient, last-ditch effort promotional campaign. From our side, more calls can be made with fewer people. From the receiving side, it is much easier to hang up on a recording than a live person, if you do not want to hear what they have to say. I will also add that the FSP has an entire team of everyone they can find to make "live" calls for this whole past week, again acting in service of the FSP and not using those numbers for any other purpose.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Dave Mincin on December 30, 2006, 02:36:09 pm
Hi Elizabeth....Nice to see you still have some interest in the FSP.  Personally
think if you had taken the time to really get to know some of the folks your
attitude might be a bit different. :)
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 30, 2006, 02:36:31 pm
Let me also clarify - aside from the privacy breach, had a live person called, it wouldn't have been half as offensive.  Robotcalls are lazy, and they're spam.

Considering that within the first sentence of the call Mark (the guy who recorded the audio) gives out his personal CELL PHONE NUMBER, I don't think you can consider it spam.  Considering he invites the listener to call him personally for any reason, I don't think that's spam.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 30, 2006, 02:39:31 pm
When I joined the Yahoo group and asked for some phone numbers,  Sandy replied that all of the phone numbers had been distributed.

Am I to now understand that there are still phone calls to be made?  Are there 2 groups making calls?  The pledge is almost over.  But, if there are still participants that have not been called, let us know.  Post Mark's contact info here.  Some of us may have time to make some calls today or tomorrow.

941-356-3562 cel  mark@freetalklive.com

The original call set that Sandy had was the people who had said they'd move within 2 years.  Mark is in charge of calling everyone else.  I'm sure he'd appreciate your call.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: RichW on December 30, 2006, 03:04:02 pm
When I joined the Yahoo group and asked for some phone numbers,  Sandy replied that all of the phone numbers had been distributed.

Am I to now understand that there are still phone calls to be made?  Are there 2 groups making calls?  The pledge is almost over.  But, if there are still participants that have not been called, let us know.  Post Mark's contact info here.  Some of us may have time to make some calls today or tomorrow.

941-356-3562 cel  mark@freetalklive.com

The original call set that Sandy had was the people who had said they'd move within 2 years.  Mark is in charge of calling everyone else.  I'm sure he'd appreciate your call.

OK, thanks.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:07:10 pm
Considering that within the first sentence of the call Mark (the guy who recorded the audio) gives out his personal CELL PHONE NUMBER, I don't think you can consider it spam.  Considering he invites the listener to call him personally for any reason, I don't think that's spam.

Considering that the first two calls came in as half-assed voicemail messages, with the beginning (and ends) cut off, that's not very helpful.

Considering that Nigerian princes invite me to email them, it's still spam.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:12:09 pm
The intention was only to call individuals who willingly provided their numbers for use by FSP purposes.

If robotcalls calls were included as part of the FSP contact purposes, I sure wouldn't have agreed.

And I'm pretty sure the FSP only has my husband's phone as a backup for when we had the big press week.

I've provided my phone number to certain organizations I trust not to abuse it - I thought FSP was one of those.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: citizen_142002 on December 30, 2006, 03:16:20 pm
The computer calling is working. Not that everyone here seems to care if First 1000 works or not. I'm glad Mark took the intiative and I'd say that if F1K makes it, we'll have him to thank. If you give your phone number to the FSP, and expect that they'll never call you, then you're an idiot. Giving a phone number to an organization is tantamount to giving that organization permission to call you.

Thank you Mark. :)

Elizabeth, if you mean to say that the FSP has failed in that it won't get to 20K within a couple years, you're right. If you mean to say that it has failed in not producing results, you're wrong. The folks in NH have gotten things done. The FSP led to the creation of Free Talk Live which now reaches hundreds of thousands of listeners on the weekends, and the numbers are growing.

Now we've almost got the 1000 people who'll give the FSP and MORE importantly the liberty movement in New Hampshire an enormous boost. One reason the FSP has flatlined is because a lot of the folks in charge have had the same narrow view of success that you have. Many have refused to engage in any activity besides looking for the remaing 13K. Once the F1K is done, there will be an opportunity to recruit with new fervor, and an emphasis on moving.

Once people know that there are 1000 porcs in NH, I think you'll find a lot of folks will be moving with less apprehension and forestalling.  

If you aren't willing to offend a handful of people by calling them, then maybe taking on the system isn't for you. A lot of libertarians talk a big talk, but then when it's time to publicly take a stand against the popular opinion, they shrink.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:20:32 pm
When it's time to publicly take a stand against the popular opinion, they shrink.

Um, if you think going on national TV and national and international radio and defending liberty isn't taking a stand, you can kiss my ass.  I've lost job opportunities because of people googling me and seeing what I've said in favor of the FSP.  I accept that as a consequence of my beliefs, but DON'T accuse me of not taking a stand.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:21:38 pm
"If you give your phone number to the FSP, and expect that they'll never call you, then you're an idiot."

Not expecting spammy robotcalls is reasonable, I think.  Especially malfunctioning ones.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Ogre on December 30, 2006, 03:23:35 pm
I want to thank everyone who's working hard these last few weeks of the year to make these phone calls, whether they be personal or computer calls.  It is clearly making a difference and if we get the 1000 signers in the next 24 hours, that will be a huge, major success, and one that can be built upon in the future.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:24:51 pm
"Elizabeth, if you mean to say that the FSP has failed in that it won't get to 20K within a couple years, you're right."

Yes, I am.

Another project has been started - fine, good luck.  But it's not the FSP as stated, as pledged to.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:26:54 pm
I want to thank everyone who's working hard these last few weeks of the year to make these phone calls, whether they be personal or computer calls.  It is clearly making a difference and if we get the 1000 signers in the next 24 hours, that will be a huge, major success, and one that can be built upon in the future.

Yes, that 1000 looks mighty impressive.  You don't think someone might, um, notice the difference between 20K and 1K?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Friday on December 30, 2006, 03:28:50 pm
For the few people who will be offended, it's well worth it.  Fact is, we don't have enough volunteers to make 5,000 real calls.  I doubt you stepped up, as most people have not.  Congrats to Mark for taking the initiative and making this happen!

When I joined the Yahoo group and asked for some phone numbers,  Sandy replied that all of the phone numbers had been distributed.

Am I to now understand that there are still phone calls to be made?  Are there 2 groups making calls?  The pledge is almost over.  But, if there are still participants that have not been called, let us know.  Post Mark's contact info here.  Some of us may have time to make some calls today or tomorrow.

Rich, in answer to your question:  Varrin took F1K out of my hands after I made that statement.  Yes, there are two groups making calls. There are people who did it out of a sense of volunteerism; and there are people who are now getting paid to do it.  I had nothing to do with the decision either to pay people for signups, or the decision to use robocallers (which I find creepy and irritating).  I regret any association of myself as so-called "First 1000 Project Manager" with these decisions. 
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: citizen_142002 on December 30, 2006, 03:34:24 pm
Why do you still post here if the FSP is such an abject failure Elizabeth? If someone wants to jump ship because they honestly believe that the FSP is done for, that is fine by me. However, I can't stand when frustrated folks who claim to be doing good for the project sit around and snipe. If you think we've failed then clear out your desk and do something else for liberty. Why would you waste your time on a "dead project"? Honestly and without malice, I suggest that you ought to go do something else, because you are only serving to divide and discourage those who are trying to get thing done.

Anyway, why are we even on this thread? There is a little more than a day left and as of the most recent count, we need 33 more signers. If you know anyone who was unsure as to whether they would sign the F1K, then call or e-mail them and encourage them to sign today. Why not pop over to other liberty friendly forums and let everyone know that it's last call on this thing?

I for one am done wasting my time here today. Those who wish to stay and complain about how far away 20K is are welcome to do that for a few years.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Friday on December 30, 2006, 03:35:14 pm
These numbers are destroyed and returned to the FSP with the results of the calls - contacted, no longer in service, etc.

Personally, I have little faith in that.  All of the original phone bank volunteers were told, both via email and via personal phone call from Varrin, that part of the agreement was that they were on their honor to return the private FSP membership data, along with any updates, to me.  Several failed to do so, including some now involved with the current robocall/calling for money project.   :P
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:37:14 pm
These numbers are destroyed and returned to the FSP with the results of the calls - contacted, no longer in service, etc.

Personally, I have little faith in that.  All of the original phone bank volunteers were told, both via email and via personal phone call from Varrin, that part of the agreement was that they were on their honor to return the private FSP membership data, along with any updates, to me.  Several failed to do so, including some now involved with the current robocall/calling for money project.   :P

That is SO f*cked up.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Friday on December 30, 2006, 03:38:15 pm
When I joined the Yahoo group and asked for some phone numbers,  Sandy replied that all of the phone numbers had been distributed.

Am I to now understand that there are still phone calls to be made?  Are there 2 groups making calls?  The pledge is almost over.  But, if there are still participants that have not been called, let us know.  Post Mark's contact info here.  Some of us may have time to make some calls today or tomorrow.

941-356-3562 cel  mark@freetalklive.com

The original call set that Sandy had was the people who had said they'd move within 2 years.  Mark is in charge of calling everyone else.  I'm sure he'd appreciate your call.

Incorrect.  I had volunteers making calls beyond the "move within 2 years" group as well. 
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:38:37 pm
Why do you still post here if the FSP is such an abject failure Elizabeth?

BECAUSE I GOT SPAMMED BY ROBOCALLS.

Which I've now found out were generated by my number being SOLD to the spammer.

OUTRAGEOUS.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: JasonPSorens on December 30, 2006, 03:40:53 pm
Wow, this thread really blew up... The FSP's privacy policy has never been breached as far as I can tell; I just want to clarify that. From everything I've been told about this new operation, it seems that limited contact information was given to FSP volunteers, not to anyone outside the organization, just as we have always done for local groups, for the big calling project we did during the state vote, and for the earlier (human) calls for the F1K project, which were targeted mostly at people who had indicated on the website that they expected to move within two years.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:41:43 pm
pay people for signups

SERIOUSLY?  The FSP is paying people to get F1K signups?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:44:11 pm
Wow, this thread really blew up... The FSP's privacy policy has never been breached as far as I can tell; I just want to clarify that. From everything I've been told about this new operation, it seems that limited contact information was given to FSP volunteers, not to anyone outside the organization, just as we have always done for local groups, for the big calling project we did during the state vote, and for the earlier (human) calls for the F1K project, which were targeted mostly at people who had indicated on the website that they expected to move within two years.

Once the information is in the hands of volunteers, how do you control what happens to it then?  That's a violation right there.

And what about paying people to send spam robocalls?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: JasonPSorens on December 30, 2006, 03:47:43 pm
Wow, this thread really blew up... The FSP's privacy policy has never been breached as far as I can tell; I just want to clarify that. From everything I've been told about this new operation, it seems that limited contact information was given to FSP volunteers, not to anyone outside the organization, just as we have always done for local groups, for the big calling project we did during the state vote, and for the earlier (human) calls for the F1K project, which were targeted mostly at people who had indicated on the website that they expected to move within two years.

Once the information is in the hands of volunteers, how do you control what happens to it then?  That's a violation right there.

As you know, we've always had to use volunteers when we make phone calls or emails to members. After all, we're all volunteers; there are no paid staff. The policy has always been to give only limited contact information necessary for the job at hand - in this case, just names and phone numbers. Volunteers are instructed to use the contact information only for the specific job. Beyond that, what can we do?

Quote
And what about paying people to send spam robocalls?

Maybe it's wrong to describe Mark Edge as a "volunteer"; he's an FSP member, but from what I gather, he has been paid to make these calls, simply because we didn't have enough volunteers to make all these calls.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: MengerFan on December 30, 2006, 03:48:01 pm
OK, let's calm down again.

Friday, I will be returning my data today directly to Verrin. Mark is a reputable public figure, and I am pretty sure that he will also do so.

No one's number was sold to anyone. The recorded messages were donated by a FSP supporter. The only entity making money from those was Sprint for the long distance bill.

The only "selling" that took place was that Mark was paying a bounty to his volunteers for each verified pledge that they generated. I am unaware of the particular verification process that occurred.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:53:46 pm
Wow, this thread really blew up... The FSP's privacy policy has never been breached as far as I can tell; I just want to clarify that. From everything I've been told about this new operation, it seems that limited contact information was given to FSP volunteers, not to anyone outside the organization, just as we have always done for local groups, for the big calling project we did during the state vote, and for the earlier (human) calls for the F1K project, which were targeted mostly at people who had indicated on the website that they expected to move within two years.

Once the information is in the hands of volunteers, how do you control what happens to it then?  That's a violation right there.

As you know, we've always had to use volunteers when we make phone calls or emails to members. After all, we're all volunteers; there are no paid staff. The policy has always been to give only limited contact information necessary for the job at hand - in this case, just names and phone numbers. Volunteers are instructed to use the contact information only for the specific job. Beyond that, what can we do?

I can remember a time when we agreed NOT to give out phone numbers and addresses to people, even for local groups, because we were sensitive about privacy issues.  What do you even know about these volunteers?

And what about paying people to send spam robocalls?

Maybe it's wrong to describe Mark Edge as a "volunteer"; he's an FSP member, but from what I gather, he has been paid to make these calls, simply because we didn't have enough volunteers to make all these calls.

So, yes, you sold my number.  To a robocall spammer.  Who can't even use his equipment correctly.

Since when did you lose all sense of responsibility to privacy of your members?  Or even lost the sense of good taste not to use spammers?

Rich says in this thread his group could have made more human calls - why sell my number to a spammer?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:55:19 pm
OK, let's calm down again.

Friday, I will be returning my data today directly to Verrin. Mark is a reputable public figure, and I am pretty sure that he will also do so.

No one's number was sold to anyone. The recorded messages were donated by a FSP supporter. The only entity making money from those was Sprint for the long distance bill.

The only "selling" that took place was that Mark was paying a bounty to his volunteers for each verified pledge that they generated. I am unaware of the particular verification process that occurred.



"His volunteers"?  Who the hell is that?  Another layer of privacy breach?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:56:18 pm
And is it true what Friday says about information still missing and/or unreturned?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: JasonPSorens on December 30, 2006, 03:57:39 pm
Wow, this thread really blew up... The FSP's privacy policy has never been breached as far as I can tell; I just want to clarify that. From everything I've been told about this new operation, it seems that limited contact information was given to FSP volunteers, not to anyone outside the organization, just as we have always done for local groups, for the big calling project we did during the state vote, and for the earlier (human) calls for the F1K project, which were targeted mostly at people who had indicated on the website that they expected to move within two years.

Once the information is in the hands of volunteers, how do you control what happens to it then?  That's a violation right there.

As you know, we've always had to use volunteers when we make phone calls or emails to members. After all, we're all volunteers; there are no paid staff. The policy has always been to give only limited contact information necessary for the job at hand - in this case, just names and phone numbers. Volunteers are instructed to use the contact information only for the specific job. Beyond that, what can we do?

I can remember a time when we agreed NOT to give out phone numbers and addresses to people, even for local groups, because we were sensitive about privacy issues.  What do you even know about these volunteers?

My recollection conflicts with yours - we always gave contact information for FSP participants in a particular area to local group leaders, and expected them to use the information responsibly.

Quote
And what about paying people to send spam robocalls?

Maybe it's wrong to describe Mark Edge as a "volunteer"; he's an FSP member, but from what I gather, he has been paid to make these calls, simply because we didn't have enough volunteers to make all these calls.

So, yes, you sold my number.  To a robocall spammer.  Who can't even use his equipment correctly.

Since when did you lose all sense of responsibility to privacy of your members?  Or even lost the sense of good taste not to use spammers?

Rich says in this thread his group could have made more human calls - why sell my number to a spammer?

In my view, it is inaccurate to say that the number was sold. Mark was essentially hired as a contract worker for the FSP. As far as the computer calls issue goes, I'll leave the explanation of that to someone better informed (oh, Varrin...?).
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:58:14 pm
"The only "selling" that took place was that Mark was paying a bounty to his volunteers for each verified pledge that they generated. I am unaware of the particular verification process that occurred."

Does ANYONE in authority know?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 03:59:53 pm
"My recollection conflicts with yours - we always gave contact information for FSP participants in a particular area to local group leaders, and expected them to use the information responsibly."

Fine, let's say I misremember.  Even so, local group leaders were well known and trusted.  Can you say the same for all the people that were given personal info for this phone bank?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: JasonPSorens on December 30, 2006, 04:01:29 pm
"My recollection conflicts with yours - we always gave contact information for FSP participants in a particular area to local group leaders, and expected them to use the information responsibly."

Fine, let's say I misremember.  Even so, local group leaders were well known and trusted.  Can you say the same for all the people that were given personal info for this phone bank?

Mark himself is well known, although I've never met him. He's part of the FTL team, has moved to NH, etc.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 04:03:16 pm
"My recollection conflicts with yours - we always gave contact information for FSP participants in a particular area to local group leaders, and expected them to use the information responsibly."

Fine, let's say I misremember.  Even so, local group leaders were well known and trusted.  Can you say the same for all the people that were given personal info for this phone bank?

Mark himself is well known, although I've never met him. He's part of the FTL team, has moved to NH, etc.

I'm talking about all the other human volunteers.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: JasonPSorens on December 30, 2006, 04:06:12 pm
"My recollection conflicts with yours - we always gave contact information for FSP participants in a particular area to local group leaders, and expected them to use the information responsibly."

Fine, let's say I misremember.  Even so, local group leaders were well known and trusted.  Can you say the same for all the people that were given personal info for this phone bank?

Mark himself is well known, although I've never met him. He's part of the FTL team, has moved to NH, etc.

I'm talking about all the other human volunteers.

Varrin and Mark would be the people to ask about that.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 04:07:36 pm
I just.... can't believe.  That the leadership has sunk so low as to approve multiple robocalls.  I'm so... disappointed.  And angry.  And ashamed.   :P
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 04:08:04 pm
"Varrin and Mark would be the people to ask about that."

Then get them over here.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Ogre on December 30, 2006, 04:14:21 pm
I really do have a nearly infinite amount of patience.  But I'm with citizen_142002 -- it's time to ignore the trolls and get back to work.  I'm going to call my brother and try and talk him into signing one more time.  And no, no one is "paying" me to do it, nor did I purchase his phone number.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: JonM on December 30, 2006, 04:17:09 pm
I made lots and lots of calls.  I called pretty much every Free Stater in MA, and made a couple dozen (mostly disconnected numbers) calls for Mark's program while on vacation here in Florida, even though I have no intention of taking $ for anyone who signed up because I called.

Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: jeanius on December 30, 2006, 04:30:29 pm
My recollection on privacy issues is more in line with Elizabeth's.  And, of course, anyone's reaction to the calls (and emails, or snail mails) is in part a function of their sensitivity to privacy issues.  I value my privacy and protect it whenever I can.  When I was on the board, and especially when I was Secretary, I fought very hard to ensure that the information on the participant rolls was not open to subjective use.  I know a fair number of libertarians who also care about privacy, a large enough group to not ignore.  There were a series of checkboxes in recent times so that an SOI signer could indicate whether they wanted to be contacted by local groups, or receive news via email, etc.  Those were designed to protect people's privacy and let the individuals choose how, if at all, they wanted to be contacted.  However, it is possible that the current policy is to assume a positive for those people who were on the rolls before the checkboxes were implemented. 

I have to admit that I am also not a fan of robot calls.  It *is* spam.  I never listen to them when I do get them.  I don't know if I have received one FSP related because I would have hung up, or deleted the message, before getting any meaningful content. 

In other news, the First 1000 is scary close to succeeding right now.  I hope the numbers are mostly solid, true signups.

Jean
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:00:30 pm
Holy f**K, this was annoying.

I'm really, REALLY angry about it.  Between me and my husband, we've gotten FOUR bullshit robotcalls.

I'm sorry to see the FSP has sunk this low.

Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:01:23 pm
From: Elizabeth McKinstry
To: info@freestateproject.org, vswearingen@freestateproject.org, scobb@freestateproject.org, jsorens@freestateproject.org, mstraus@freestateproject.org, bsullivan@freestateproject.org, jmaltz@freestateproject.org, spierre@freestateproject.org
Cc: Elizabeth McKinstry <emckinstry@gmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2006 12:23 PM
Subject: Robotcalls - REMOVE US FROM YOUR LIST

Dear Everyone -

I can't believe the FSP would stoop to something as annoying and
universally hated as robotcalls.

Between me and my husband, we have received FOUR calls in the last two days.

I don't know whom you gave our numbers to, but if it's outside the FSP
and a violation of the privacy policy, you can bet your ass I'm going
to make a complaint to the appropriate agency.

In the meantime, REMOVE OUR ADDRESSES AND PHONE NUMBERS FROM YOUR
MARKETING LISTS.

We keep up with what's going on with the FSP (i.e., nothing remotely
like what we pledged to), and we don't need your unsolicited mail in
our mailbox or our voicemail.

Nice job, folks.

With sincere anger,

Elizabeth McKinstry and [my husband]
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:02:14 pm
Robotcalls are spam.

I don't even know how the FSP *has* my husband's cell phone number.

When I signed up for the FSP, robotcalls would never have been considered.  *I* certainly never considered that providing a phone number would include getting robotcalls that cost ME money (since we are a wireless household, we don't have landlines).

Politicians who robotcall me don't get my vote.  Organizations that robotcall me don't get my money.  The FSP should be ashamed of itself.
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:02:42 pm
"Spam would occur if the FSP provided your number to the LP and they used the number to contact you."

As far as I'm concerned, privacy has been breached.  Who knows who has my phone number and address info now?  Sounds like lists have been distributed to everyone and their brother for this bullsh*t marketing push.

UNACCEPTABLE.

And don't you DARE accuse me of not giving time and energy to the FSP, you self-righteous little man.

Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:03:04 pm
She almost seems upset we're succeeding without her.   ???


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, succeeding, right.

You're going to get to that 20,000 - um, when?  With real signup numbers, please?
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 05:03:19 pm
Hey, more spam!  That's the spirit!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:03:30 pm
You've got to be kidding me.  The FSP asks people to turn over their lives, sell their homes, take their kids out of school, quit their jobs and establish it all over again in another state hundreds of miles away, and there's bitching about a 30 second phone call to the point of threatening to call the government in on it.  Sorry for the inconvenience, but if you're that miffed by something so minor, then your understanding of the FSP's mission and the gravity of what it asks has been knocked way out of perspective.

I know INTIMATELY what the FSP is asking.  I also take privacy VERY seriously, and therefore handing out my phone number to god knows who for spam calls is both unnecessary and offensive.
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 05:03:56 pm
You've got to be kidding me.  The FSP asks people to turn over their lives, sell their homes, take their kids out of school, quit their jobs and establish it all over again in another state hundreds of miles away, and there's bitching about a 30 second phone call to the point of threatening to call the government in on it.  Sorry for the inconvenience, but if you're that miffed by something so minor, then your understanding of the FSP's mission and the gravity of what it asks has been knocked way out of perspective.

I know INTIMATELY what the FSP is asking.  I also take privacy VERY seriously, and therefore handing out my phone number to god knows who for spam calls is both unnecessary and offensive.
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.


Hey, more spam!  That's the spirit!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:04:00 pm
Nobody in New Hampshire gives a damn about 20,000, Elizabeth. 

That is the stated goal and purpose of the FSP.  If the FSP hasn't met it, and won't meet it, it's a failure.

You're happy in NH - great.  The FSP is still a failure.

Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 05:04:17 pm
Holy f**K, this was annoying.

I'm really, REALLY angry about it.  Between me and my husband, we've gotten FOUR bullshit robotcalls.

I'm sorry to see the FSP has sunk this low.

Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.

Hey, more spam!  That's the spirit!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 05:04:34 pm
From: Elizabeth McKinstry
To: info@freestateproject.org, vswearingen@freestateproject.org, scobb@freestateproject.org, jsorens@freestateproject.org, mstraus@freestateproject.org, bsullivan@freestateproject.org, jmaltz@freestateproject.org, spierre@freestateproject.org
Cc: Elizabeth McKinstry <emckinstry@gmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2006 12:23 PM
Subject: Robotcalls - REMOVE US FROM YOUR LIST

Dear Everyone -

I can't believe the FSP would stoop to something as annoying and
universally hated as robotcalls.

Between me and my husband, we have received FOUR calls in the last two days.

I don't know whom you gave our numbers to, but if it's outside the FSP
and a violation of the privacy policy, you can bet your ass I'm going
to make a complaint to the appropriate agency.

In the meantime, REMOVE OUR ADDRESSES AND PHONE NUMBERS FROM YOUR
MARKETING LISTS.

We keep up with what's going on with the FSP (i.e., nothing remotely
like what we pledged to), and we don't need your unsolicited mail in
our mailbox or our voicemail.

Nice job, folks.

With sincere anger,

Elizabeth McKinstry and [my husband]
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.


Hey, more spam!  That's the spirit!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:04:39 pm
Let me also clarify - aside from the privacy breach, had a live person called, it wouldn't have been half as offensive.  Robotcalls are lazy, and they're spam.

Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:05:05 pm
Considering that within the first sentence of the call Mark (the guy who recorded the audio) gives out his personal CELL PHONE NUMBER, I don't think you can consider it spam.  Considering he invites the listener to call him personally for any reason, I don't think that's spam.

Considering that the first two calls came in as half-assed voicemail messages, with the beginning (and ends) cut off, that's not very helpful.

Considering that Nigerian princes invite me to email them, it's still spam.
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 05:05:13 pm
Nobody in New Hampshire gives a damn about 20,000, Elizabeth. 

That is the stated goal and purpose of the FSP.  If the FSP hasn't met it, and won't meet it, it's a failure.

You're happy in NH - great.  The FSP is still a failure.

Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.


Hey, more spam!  That's the spirit!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:05:29 pm
The intention was only to call individuals who willingly provided their numbers for use by FSP purposes.

If robotcalls calls were included as part of the FSP contact purposes, I sure wouldn't have agreed.

And I'm pretty sure the FSP only has my husband's phone as a backup for when we had the big press week.

I've provided my phone number to certain organizations I trust not to abuse it - I thought FSP was one of those.
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 05:05:44 pm
Considering that within the first sentence of the call Mark (the guy who recorded the audio) gives out his personal CELL PHONE NUMBER, I don't think you can consider it spam.  Considering he invites the listener to call him personally for any reason, I don't think that's spam.

Considering that the first two calls came in as half-assed voicemail messages, with the beginning (and ends) cut off, that's not very helpful.

Considering that Nigerian princes invite me to email them, it's still spam.
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.


Hey, more spam!  That's the spirit!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 05:06:02 pm
The intention was only to call individuals who willingly provided their numbers for use by FSP purposes.

If robotcalls calls were included as part of the FSP contact purposes, I sure wouldn't have agreed.

And I'm pretty sure the FSP only has my husband's phone as a backup for when we had the big press week.

I've provided my phone number to certain organizations I trust not to abuse it - I thought FSP was one of those.
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.


Hey, more spam!  That's the spirit!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:06:10 pm
When it's time to publicly take a stand against the popular opinion, they shrink.

Um, if you think going on national TV and national and international radio and defending liberty isn't taking a stand, you can kiss my ass.  I've lost job opportunities because of people googling me and seeing what I've said in favor of the FSP.  I accept that as a consequence of my beliefs, but DON'T accuse me of not taking a stand.

Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:06:42 pm
"If you give your phone number to the FSP, and expect that they'll never call you, then you're an idiot."

Not expecting spammy robotcalls is reasonable, I think.  Especially malfunctioning ones.

Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 05:07:05 pm
"If you give your phone number to the FSP, and expect that they'll never call you, then you're an idiot."

Not expecting spammy robotcalls is reasonable, I think.  Especially malfunctioning ones.

Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.

Hey, more spam!  That's the spirit!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:07:15 pm
"Elizabeth, if you mean to say that the FSP has failed in that it won't get to 20K within a couple years, you're right."

Yes, I am.

Another project has been started - fine, good luck.  But it's not the FSP as stated, as pledged to.
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:07:47 pm
I want to thank everyone who's working hard these last few weeks of the year to make these phone calls, whether they be personal or computer calls.  It is clearly making a difference and if we get the 1000 signers in the next 24 hours, that will be a huge, major success, and one that can be built upon in the future.

Yes, that 1000 looks mighty impressive.  You don't think someone might, um, notice the difference between 20K and 1K?
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 30, 2006, 05:08:08 pm
Also, the word is "kudos."

Watch out for those extra apostrophes - they multiply like SPAM.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 05:08:49 pm
These numbers are destroyed and returned to the FSP with the results of the calls - contacted, no longer in service, etc.

Personally, I have little faith in that.  All of the original phone bank volunteers were told, both via email and via personal phone call from Varrin, that part of the agreement was that they were on their honor to return the private FSP membership data, along with any updates, to me.  Several failed to do so, including some now involved with the current robocall/calling for money project.   :P

That is SO f*cked up.Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.


(I'm getting tired.  I'll continue later.)
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FreeBoB on December 30, 2006, 05:31:32 pm
That was a good out loud laugh!   ;D ;D
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 30, 2006, 05:58:25 pm
The FSP led to the creation of Free Talk Live which now reaches hundreds of thousands of listeners on the weekends, and the numbers are growing.

The first two claims in that sentence are false, for the record.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: RichW on December 30, 2006, 06:27:13 pm
Rich says in this thread his group could have made more human calls - why sell my number to a spammer?

Elizabeth, you misuderstood my post.  I am not a "group"...just another FSP participant.  Read my post again and Friday's response.  That should clear things up.

I understand why you are upset.  I get emotional about freedom and privacy issues too.  Come to think of it, that is why I am a participant in the FSP.  Don't forget though, that we are all just volunteers, and human.  We do the best we can but make mistakes.  Your time as Vice President probably taught you that there is often far more work than there are volunteers to do it.  That leads to communcation breakdowns and sub-optimal decision-making.

As far as I can tell, a computer snafu resulted in 4 robo-calls to your phone numbers.  The person that goofed apologized.  Please accept that apology.

In order to succeed as an organization, however, we must contact our members from time to time.  I suspect the new year will bring an opt-out decision for you and others that no longer want to be a part of the FSP.  Avail yourself of that option.  But, please stop berating us for being human.  Thank you!

Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:06:06 pm
Why do you still post here if the FSP is such an abject failure Elizabeth?

BECAUSE I GOT SPAMMED BY ROBOCALLS.

Which I've now found out were generated by my number being SOLD to the spammer.

OUTRAGEOUS.
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:07:32 pm
pay people for signups

SERIOUSLY?  The FSP is paying people to get F1K signups?

Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:08:01 pm
Wow, this thread really blew up... The FSP's privacy policy has never been breached as far as I can tell; I just want to clarify that. From everything I've been told about this new operation, it seems that limited contact information was given to FSP volunteers, not to anyone outside the organization, just as we have always done for local groups, for the big calling project we did during the state vote, and for the earlier (human) calls for the F1K project, which were targeted mostly at people who had indicated on the website that they expected to move within two years.

Once the information is in the hands of volunteers, how do you control what happens to it then?  That's a violation right there.

And what about paying people to send spam robocalls?
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:08:32 pm
Wow, this thread really blew up... The FSP's privacy policy has never been breached as far as I can tell; I just want to clarify that. From everything I've been told about this new operation, it seems that limited contact information was given to FSP volunteers, not to anyone outside the organization, just as we have always done for local groups, for the big calling project we did during the state vote, and for the earlier (human) calls for the F1K project, which were targeted mostly at people who had indicated on the website that they expected to move within two years.

Once the information is in the hands of volunteers, how do you control what happens to it then?  That's a violation right there.

As you know, we've always had to use volunteers when we make phone calls or emails to members. After all, we're all volunteers; there are no paid staff. The policy has always been to give only limited contact information necessary for the job at hand - in this case, just names and phone numbers. Volunteers are instructed to use the contact information only for the specific job. Beyond that, what can we do?

I can remember a time when we agreed NOT to give out phone numbers and addresses to people, even for local groups, because we were sensitive about privacy issues.  What do you even know about these volunteers?

And what about paying people to send spam robocalls?

Maybe it's wrong to describe Mark Edge as a "volunteer"; he's an FSP member, but from what I gather, he has been paid to make these calls, simply because we didn't have enough volunteers to make all these calls.

So, yes, you sold my number.  To a robocall spammer.  Who can't even use his equipment correctly.

Since when did you lose all sense of responsibility to privacy of your members?  Or even lost the sense of good taste not to use spammers?

Rich says in this thread his group could have made more human calls - why sell my number to a spammer?
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:10:51 pm
OK, let's calm down again.

Friday, I will be returning my data today directly to Verrin. Mark is a reputable public figure, and I am pretty sure that he will also do so.

No one's number was sold to anyone. The recorded messages were donated by a FSP supporter. The only entity making money from those was Sprint for the long distance bill.

The only "selling" that took place was that Mark was paying a bounty to his volunteers for each verified pledge that they generated. I am unaware of the particular verification process that occurred.



"His volunteers"?  Who the hell is that?  Another layer of privacy breach?
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:11:21 pm
And is it true what Friday says about information still missing and/or unreturned?
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:11:54 pm
"The only "selling" that took place was that Mark was paying a bounty to his volunteers for each verified pledge that they generated. I am unaware of the particular verification process that occurred."

Does ANYONE in authority know?
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:12:19 pm
"My recollection conflicts with yours - we always gave contact information for FSP participants in a particular area to local group leaders, and expected them to use the information responsibly."

Fine, let's say I misremember.  Even so, local group leaders were well known and trusted.  Can you say the same for all the people that were given personal info for this phone bank?

Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:12:48 pm
"My recollection conflicts with yours - we always gave contact information for FSP participants in a particular area to local group leaders, and expected them to use the information responsibly."

Fine, let's say I misremember.  Even so, local group leaders were well known and trusted.  Can you say the same for all the people that were given personal info for this phone bank?

Mark himself is well known, although I've never met him. He's part of the FTL team, has moved to NH, etc.

I'm talking about all the other human volunteers.Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:13:19 pm
I just.... can't believe.  That the leadership has sunk so low as to approve multiple robocalls.  I'm so... disappointed.  And angry.  And ashamed.   :P
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:14:21 pm
"Varrin and Mark would be the people to ask about that."

Then get them over here.

Yeah!  GET THEM OVER HERE!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:14:59 pm
Hey, more spam!  That's the spirit!
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:15:31 pm
You've got to be kidding me.  The FSP asks people to turn over their lives, sell their homes, take their kids out of school, quit their jobs and establish it all over again in another state hundreds of miles away, and there's bitching about a 30 second phone call to the point of threatening to call the government in on it.  Sorry for the inconvenience, but if you're that miffed by something so minor, then your understanding of the FSP's mission and the gravity of what it asks has been knocked way out of perspective.

I know INTIMATELY what the FSP is asking.  I also take privacy VERY seriously, and therefore handing out my phone number to god knows who for spam calls is both unnecessary and offensive.
Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudo's to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.

Who wouldn't want to hear from another Porc?  Even twice the same week

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP, however craven.

Hey, more spam!  That's the spirit!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 30, 2006, 07:16:08 pm
Also, the word is "kudos."

Watch out for those extra apostrophes - they multiply like SPAM.

Thanks
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 30, 2006, 08:44:18 pm
Lloyd rocks.   ;D
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: error on December 30, 2006, 08:51:38 pm
I'm just disappointed that I didn't get ANY calls, either robot, human, or Manwich. Then again I signed the First 1000 almost a year ago! ;D
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 31, 2006, 12:39:16 am
Lloyd rocks.   ;D

Sure, if "I know you are but what am I?" playground humor rocks.   ::)

It's easy to copy and paste - look, even Lloyd can do it!  It's harder to address real questions and issues about poorly handled privacy concerns, people paid to get signups, and program organizers who no longer wish to associate with the badly handled campaign.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 31, 2006, 12:40:17 am
This critique is amusing because Elizabeth's posts are filled with grammar errors.

Feel free to point them out to me.  Or, you know, add something productive to the discussion.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 31, 2006, 12:45:56 am
I really do have a nearly infinite amount of patience.  But I'm with citizen_142002 -- it's time to ignore the trolls and get back to work.  I'm going to call my brother and try and talk him into signing one more time.  And no, no one is "paying" me to do it, nor did I purchase his phone number.

And that's exactly how it ought to be.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 31, 2006, 12:47:55 am
however craven.

Craven indeed.  You should be ashamed of yourselves.  Are you so desperate that you have to resort to robocalling, and then namecalling in the forums?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: varrin on December 31, 2006, 01:05:02 am
Good grief, I leave the house this morning and come back tonight to a whole explosion.

I am the person who is ultimately responsible for making the decision to call and 'robocall' people in the hopes of achieving the First 1000 goal. 

The handling of the FSP's data has been accomplished by people who I have checked out.  For example, I have spoken to Mark Edge on the phone countless times over the last several days (probably over a dozen, maybe two).  I have also spoke to Jason on the phone in the process of evaluating whether we should take advantage of his offer to perform the 'robocalls'. 

No data was ever sold.  Assertions that data was sold were made exclusively out of ignorance.

Prior to paid phone callers, we operated a volunteer phone bank for several weeks.  All of those volunteers were checked out to do the program by me and instructed specifically as to how to handle the data.  I have met many of them personally (including Mark and Ian whose houses I could walk to from mine).  Though the volunteer phone bank was highly successful and I'm confident we wouldn't have succeeded without it, it was not enough to get us over the top.

So, yes, we stooped so low that, at this very moment, there are 1007 people signed up (8 over the target).  That's *after* we removed a bunch of duplicates and quite a distressing number of fraudulent signups. 

Having said that, I stand by my assertion that the FSP needs to change it's course in order to achieve the goal of a Free State in which the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.  For more on some ideas I have presented which I believe will improve the FSP, please see here:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=12925.msg165698#msg165698

I have done my best to ensure that the First 1000 pledge was conducted honestly and ethically.  Subject to that, I have done my best to help everyone who has worked on the First 1000 project see to its success.  I believe we've done the best we can and the pledge, maybe miraculously, has exceeded 1000 signers. 

If the prevailing view is that doing our best to ensure honesty, ethical behavior, *and* success is bad, I shall pass the baton to someone with different ideas at once.

V-

Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 01:11:20 am
I would be surprised if it was a computer call... probably he screwed up and called you twice by accident.
I accidentally called a person on my list twice, fortunately they were good-natured about it.

Cut Mark a break... he's been making *hundreds* of phone calls over the past few days, trying to get just a few dozen more F1K signers

I'm perfectly willing to give him a break, but I have a real problem with computers calling me and tying up my line.  I can't even disconnect.  This is why I came here and asked about it.  The republicans were using this as a political tactic just to drive voters away from the democrats by pretending to be the dems.  You know how people can hate those things.

At least, I believe it was a computer calling.  The call hit my phone and a recorded message (identical to the first one) is played.  How is that not a computer call?

I don't mind callers but I hate automated callers.  It's basically intrusive voice junk mail.  You may only imagine how much I really hate it's use.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 01:14:38 am
Ok, I'm all for the fsp, and I'm seriously considering joining the 20k people who will move to NH, but what's with the computer callers calling people up to convince them to sign up for the first 1000?

Computer calls seriously tick people off, especially repeated computer calls.  It creates ill will.  It seriously bugs me anyway.

Someome calling themselves Mark Ets (or Mark Ecks, or Narkets maybe) claiming to represent the free state project and the first 1000 has computer called me both yesterday and today.  (941-356-3562)

Could it be some group trying to block the fsp?  Just before the midterm elections, the republican party ran a series of computer calls pretending to be the democrats just to tick off voters who were on the fence.

Mark, if you are on this site, please don't call people this way.  Aside from generating ill will, you also risk someone trying to disconnect your computer because they need to make an emergency call.

For the few people who will be offended, it's well worth it.  Fact is, we don't have enough volunteers to make 5,000 real calls.  I doubt you stepped up, as most people have not.  Congrats to Mark for taking the initiative and making this happen!

I'm not going to STEP UP in response to a highly objectionable intrusive voice email.  I find your statement pretty craptastic, actually.

I came here politely asking about the guy and this technique, asking please not to use it, and you respond by telling me off for not stepping up to the plate and jumping to sign up after a thing like that?

I'm frankly disappointed.  I hope the rest of the first 1000 aren't as generous of spirit as you are.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 01:20:48 am
She almost seems upset we're succeeding without her.   ???


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, succeeding, right.

You're going to get to that 20,000 - um, when?  With real signup numbers, please?

Nobody in New Hampshire gives a damn about 20,000, Elizabeth.  The ~175 who beat me to NH were all the incentive I needed, and I've done more actual winning here in 7 months (read about the Joel Winters campaign?) than I could have imagined in 10 years if I'd stayed in Kentucky.  Our lives are better here, and we feel like we're doing our part for the future of human liberty.  And we are being effective.  If that sounds like failure to you, crawl back into your cave.

I can see the fsp isn't what I'd hoped it would be.

Basically you're saying the organization will stoop to any levels it wants in order to do what it needs and to hell with anyone who objects.

Sorry, but I thought one of the tenets of libertarianism wasn't "the ends justify the means".  In fact, that is one of the biggest problems I have with the major parties.  They do anything they have to do to succeed, regardless of whether it's right.

When an organization begins to look to itself as more important than it's members, is when it's become an organization not worthy of it's members.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 31, 2006, 01:22:14 am
Lloyd rocks.   ;D

Sure, if "I know you are but what am I?" playground humor rocks.   ::)

It's easy to copy and paste - look, even Lloyd can do it!  It's harder to address real questions and issues about poorly handled privacy concerns, people paid to get signups, and program organizers who no longer wish to associate with the badly handled campaign.

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 01:23:38 am
When I joined the Yahoo group and asked for some phone numbers,  Sandy replied that all of the phone numbers had been distributed.

Am I to now understand that there are still phone calls to be made?  Are there 2 groups making calls?  The pledge is almost over.  But, if there are still participants that have not been called, let us know.  Post Mark's contact info here.  Some of us may have time to make some calls today or tomorrow.

941-356-3562 cel  mark@freetalklive.com

The original call set that Sandy had was the people who had said they'd move within 2 years.  Mark is in charge of calling everyone else.  I'm sure he'd appreciate your call.

I never signed up for moving at all, even for the first 20k.  His call was designed to get me to sign up to be one of the first 1000.

Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 31, 2006, 01:23:51 am
This critique is amusing because Elizabeth's posts are filled with grammar errors.

Feel free to point them out to me.  Or, you know, add something productive to the discussion.

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Soundwave on December 31, 2006, 01:24:51 am
This critique is amusing because Elizabeth's posts are filled with grammar errors.

Feel free to point them out to me.  Or, you know, add something productive to the discussion.

"So, yes, you sold my number.  To a robocall spammer.  Who can't even use his equipment correctly."

"To a robocall spammer." is an incomplete sentence. "Who can't even use his equipment correctly." is also an incomplete sentence. Looks like someone forgot their comma rules! Normally I wouldn't point something out like that, because it's unnecessary, and not particularly nice either, but when you made that comment, which I read in a snotty fashion, I couldn't help myself.

My comment was simple and in regards to something that was said because I didn't feel like arguing with you. I think you are blowing this way out of proportion.

Playground humor or not, Lloyd made a joke, and I thought it was funny.  ;D
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 31, 2006, 01:25:02 am
I really do have a nearly infinite amount of patience.  But I'm with citizen_142002 -- it's time to ignore the trolls and get back to work.  I'm going to call my brother and try and talk him into signing one more time.  And no, no one is "paying" me to do it, nor did I purchase his phone number.

And that's exactly how it ought to be.


Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 31, 2006, 01:25:37 am
however craven.

Craven indeed.  You should be ashamed of yourselves.  Are you so desperate that you have to resort to robocalling, and then namecalling in the forums?


Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 01:26:06 am
The computer calling is working. Not that everyone here seems to care if First 1000 works or not. I'm glad Mark took the intiative and I'd say that if F1K makes it, we'll have him to thank. If you give your phone number to the FSP, and expect that they'll never call you, then you're an idiot. Giving a phone number to an organization is tantamount to giving that organization permission to call you.

Calling would have been fine.  Repeated robotcalls are not.

I give out my number to my bank, but if they started repeatedly robot calling me every other day to sell me another service, I'd quickly find a different bank.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 31, 2006, 01:31:05 am
The computer calling is working. Not that everyone here seems to care if First 1000 works or not. I'm glad Mark took the intiative and I'd say that if F1K makes it, we'll have him to thank. If you give your phone number to the FSP, and expect that they'll never call you, then you're an idiot. Giving a phone number to an organization is tantamount to giving that organization permission to call you.

Calling would have been fine.  Repeated robotcalls are not.

I give out my number to my bank, but if they started repeatedly robot calling me every other day to sell me another service, I'd quickly find a different bank.

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP.  And for your exuberance
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 01:39:24 am
Rich says in this thread his group could have made more human calls - why sell my number to a spammer?

Elizabeth, you misuderstood my post.  I am not a "group"...just another FSP participant.  Read my post again and Friday's response.  That should clear things up.

I understand why you are upset.  I get emotional about freedom and privacy issues too.  Come to think of it, that is why I am a participant in the FSP.  Don't forget though, that we are all just volunteers, and human.  We do the best we can but make mistakes.  Your time as Vice President probably taught you that there is often far more work than there are volunteers to do it.  That leads to communcation breakdowns and sub-optimal decision-making.

As far as I can tell, a computer snafu resulted in 4 robo-calls to your phone numbers.  The person that goofed apologized.  Please accept that apology.

In order to succeed as an organization, however, we must contact our members from time to time.  I suspect the new year will bring an opt-out decision for you and others that no longer want to be a part of the FSP.  Avail yourself of that option.  But, please stop berating us for being human.  Thank you!



I think what mostly upset Elizabeth is more that she was immediately attacked when she complained about the robot calls.

Making a mistake is fine, but when she and I tried to talk about it here, we were both attacked on it.  No one said "gee, it might have been a mistake to do this", instead it came across as "what? We have every right to bug the crap out of you since you gave us your number!  Get forked if you don't like it."

Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 01:40:49 am
Lloyd rocks.   ;D

Are you sure?  He seems more retarded than rocking to me, but then my only experience with him is those repeated posts of his.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: citizen_142002 on December 31, 2006, 01:51:53 am
Yeah seriously, heaven forbid a project actually work. Oh wait already happend. Thank God.

I suppose you don't like the idea of contracting either, Elizabeth. Perhaps you would have spent the money on a massive mailing that would have bagged 10 or 20 new signers for the FSP. Sorry, but this was a wiser investment.

Does it really matter if a person calls or an automated message? I mean, Mark gave his number. If you want a real person just dial the number he gave. I can't see a libertarian case against so called spam. You give an organization you're phone number to an organization and they call you in regards to a new aspect of the program. It doesn't even seem improper, let alone a violation of the ZAP.

If you don't like it, too bad. It's done, and it got real results.

Oh no, we must never call FSP members or send them a message. That might actually work.

Can anyone explain to me how a voice message is different from a regular mailing> No you can't cause there isn't a fundemental difference. If you get a letter you toss it if you don't want it, and with a voice message you just delete it if you don't want to listen.

Maybe some folks here think we should be jackasses and never contact any FSP signers in anyway. If a mailing is OK, then voice mailing is OK. It's the same damn thing, just a different media. If this was SPAM, then the unsolicited mailing that came to my house was SPAM. You don't hear me complaining do you? I'm not even an FSP member, but when I gave the FSP my contact info, it did dawn on me that they might use that info to contact me. Who would have thunk it?

Asfor you Elizabeth, I think you're pissed that the project didn't take off like you wanted. Well, no kidding. I'm sorry that didn't happen too. We've suceeded in a new approach. I am sorry that you don't want to be a part of it.

No true liberty loving porc ought to be offended when the FSP contacts him, whether it is a mailing, an e-mail, a personal phone call, or an automated one.

The FSP is staffed by volunteers, did you really think that the info you disclosed would be secure? Even if the number of people who see your phone number was smaller, it still wouldn't stop them from revealing it to whomever they wished, now would it.

I'm happy, and I'm celebrating.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Soundwave on December 31, 2006, 02:05:05 am
It's not like the phone calls are made on a regular basis; this was a final push for the F1k. I'm glad Mark was successful. 
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 02:31:28 am
Yeah seriously, heaven forbid a project actually work. Oh wait already happend. Thank God.

I suppose you don't like the idea of contracting either, Elizabeth. Perhaps you would have spent the money on a massive mailing that would have bagged 10 or 20 new signers for the FSP. Sorry, but this was a wiser investment.


I think she made it clear that she doesn't like the idea that her private number might be given to any non-fsp group.

I guess you're ok with the habits of certain companies that use prisoners to make telemarketing calls too.  After all, it's only contracting.


Does it really matter if a person calls or an automated message? I mean, Mark gave his number. If you want a real person just dial the number he gave. I can't see a libertarian case against so called spam. You give an organization you're phone number to an organization and they call you in regards to a new aspect of the program. It doesn't even seem improper, let alone a violation of the ZAP.


Regardless of whether it's a violation of some law doesn't make it acceptable to people.  A live person calling me is far less objectionable than a robot caller for at least the minimal issue of not being able to hang up on a robot caller.  Pick up the phone and it's STILL TALKING.

I highly object to people putting junk mail on my car as well.  There might not be a law against it but I still find it disgusting.

Why is it objectionable over a live person that calls or over snail mail or email?  Because it's designed to be INTRUSIVE.

Hey, wake up.  You're gonna hear my message on your phone whether you want to or not. It's gonna take 30 seconds of your time but you have to hear it whether you want to or not.

Junk mail I don't need to read. I can just pitch it.  Junk email I can discard without opening.  Email from a group I have interest in can be discarded or scanned through as I wish.

Having a live person call me directly shows a minimal amount of respect for my time.  My time is at least as valuable as his.  Having a robot call me shows that my time isn't considered worth even that much, and who cares if the robot calls repeatedly or screws up the message, because MY time isn't worth crap!


If you don't like it, too bad. It's done, and it got real results.


Nice attitude.  Basically screw you because we got what we wanted, regardless of the means.  Any means necessary after all.


Oh no, we must never call FSP members or send them a message. That might actually work.


A live person call, an email message, or even snail mail is far different than robot calls, especially repeated b0rked robot calls.


Can anyone explain to me how a voice message is different from a regular mailing> No you can't cause there isn't a fundemental difference. If you get a letter you toss it if you don't want it, and with a voice message you just delete it if you don't want to listen.


I just did above.    There's a huge difference.  Sending me 3 duplicate junk mails is something to laugh about.  Sending me 3 duplicate voice mails is highly annoying.  I suggest you try working in an office where a colleague repeatedly sends you duplicate voice mails and you might understand.   Basically one has to sit there listening to the message over an over.


Maybe some folks here think we should be jackasses and never contact any FSP signers in anyway. If a mailing is OK, then voice mailing is OK. It's the same damn thing, just a different media. If this was SPAM, then the unsolicited mailing that came to my house was SPAM. You don't hear me complaining do you? I'm not even an FSP member, but when I gave the FSP my contact info, it did dawn on me that they might use that info to contact me. Who would have thunk it?

Contact?  Contacts are fine.  Robot calls are annoying.  A mailing, again, is far different than a voice mailing.

I'm starting to think you are deliberately choosing to ignore the difference.  By any chance, do you work professionally in a field that sends out mass voice mails?


Asfor you Elizabeth, I think you're pissed that the project didn't take off like you wanted. Well, no kidding. I'm sorry that didn't happen too. We've suceeded in a new approach. I am sorry that you don't want to be a part of it.

No true liberty loving porc ought to be offended when the FSP contacts him, whether it is a mailing, an e-mail, a personal phone call, or an automated one.

Uh, if a true libertarian smacked you in the head with a shovel, he shouldn't be offended either I guess?  (an extreme example maybe, but made to show the ridiculousness of your statement.)

Elizabeth stressed repeatedly why she was pissed.  It was about the robot calls.    Did you not read her posts?


The FSP is staffed by volunteers, did you really think that the info you disclosed would be secure? Even if the number of people who see your phone number was smaller, it still wouldn't stop them from revealing it to whomever they wished, now would it.

I'm happy, and I'm celebrating.


It's far more of a stretch to imagine a group of fsp volunteers selling lists of fsp member phone numbers than a telemarketing company doing so.  I could be wrong.  Do you find that fsp volunteers generally sell phone lists to third party companies?

It's one thing to trust your number to a small group of supposedly trustworthy volunteers than to trust your number to a third party telemarketing company.  I would consider telemarketing companies, and robot calling companies specifically, among the dregs of industry.  What other industry makes their money based on how intrusive they can be to people at home?

Not a LOT of other industries take money from customers expressly to contact people at home, while they are eating dinner or relaxing, simply because that's the best time to reach them.

Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 02:34:38 am
It's not like the phone calls are made on a regular basis; this was a final push for the F1k. I'm glad Mark was successful. 

We only shot the victim once.  What's he complaining about?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: RichW on December 31, 2006, 03:26:49 am
It's harder to address real questions and issues about...people paid to get signups...

You have to be kidding.  You have a problem with the FSP doing marketing?????????  Um, marketing…to its OWN members.  Wow.

Hey, wake up.  You're gonna hear my message on your phone whether you want to or not. It's gonna take 30 seconds of your time but you have to hear it whether you want to or not.

Let me get this strait…you find it offensive that the FSP, a movement that you joined and supposedly support, took 30 seconds of your time????????   30 seconds.  You also must be kidding.  What do you think we are doing, selling cutlery?  This is not cold-calling we are talking about….but calls TO OUR OWN MEMBERS…people that support our cause.

If either of you expects the FSP to refrain from contacting its own members, then you either have a very large bug up your ass that needs surgical intervention, or you are two oars short of a row boat.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: "Hagrid" on December 31, 2006, 04:02:20 am
I suppose you don't like the idea of contracting either, Elizabeth. Perhaps you would have spent the money on a massive mailing that would have bagged 10 or 20 new signers for the FSP. Sorry, but this was a wiser investment.

Actually, that was done as well, so was external emails (to targeted libertarians, many of whom are NOT in the FSP database)
If fact, if you compare funds spent, I'll wager that the email and snail mail campaigns paid far more per signup.

Quote
Oh no, we must never call FSP members or send them a message. That might actually work.

Indeed, the gulching mentality (aka overly privacy concerned) to the point of absurdity has slowed the FSP down over the last 5 years.
Elizabeth is one in a long line of (past leadership) folks who have done more to stop potential progress (by naysaying at times).


Quote
The FSP is staffed by volunteers, did you really think that the info you disclosed would be secure? Even if the number of people who see your phone number was smaller, it still wouldn't stop them from revealing it to whomever they wished, now would it.

Officially, the privacy policy covers anyone who has access to the data, but NDA forms are still a 'todo' item.  I respect the FSP info (having access to large chunks of it), and misusing it would be unethical.  Who has the keys is ALWAYS a consideration leadership has made.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Steve on December 31, 2006, 04:49:07 am
Elizabeth is one in a long line of (past leadership) folks who have done more to stop potential progress (by naysaying at times).
Not true. Elizabeth is one of the best leaders the FSP ever had, and one of her best traits was a true project manager's focus on results. She was also intelligent, and possessed good judgment and perspective. The gebbeth posting here under Elizabeth's name is the victim of extreme volunteer burnout, what happens when one invests excessive effort into a cause, to the point of obsession. She is not the FSP's only case. She has been further eaten up inside by an internal conflict: feeling bound to honor her commitment to move with the FSP, while being constrained by personal circumstances.

There are people posting in this very thread who have come close to burnout and losing their marbles; I've come close enough myself. Let's try to keep the FSP in perspective. If you're an atheist like me, you know that you're just a pretentious ape, and soon you'll be dead and forgotten. If you're religious, then you can look forward to an afterlife with divine reward and punishment. How important is "Liberty in our lifetime" anyway?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Steve on December 31, 2006, 06:28:42 am
It's not like the phone calls are made on a regular basis; this was a final push for the F1k. I'm glad Mark was successful. 

We only shot the victim once.  What's he complaining about?
Libertarians are usually better at distinguishing between that which does and does not violate the ZAP/NAP, since our philosophy hinges on it. In the given case, 1-4 robocalls might be bad taste or even annoying, but nothing more.

I understand that you are looking for an acknowledgment, for someone to say, "Yes, I feel your pain, the robocalls were a horrible mistake and they will never happen again." But anecdotal evidence suggests that most of our call recipients (ostensibly libertarian activists) were pleased (pleased to see libertarian activists doing something), and very few were annoyed. This is not surprising: people do not hate robocalls per se, but robocalls combined with the purpose behind them.

The effort succeeded. Libertarians everywhere should be rejoicing. If someone is not rejoicing, I have to question his politics or his sanity. Let's get some perspective: we are in a historic struggle for *justice*, to address gross violations of human rights, and we have 9 flipping pages here of posts about a one-off spate of robocalls?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Adk Rebel on December 31, 2006, 07:29:05 am
Being a recipient of two of the robocalls, I would have preferred if it were a live person, but with the numbers involved and the time constraints, I can fully understand why this was done.  I'm just glad that it was successful and I aplaud those of you who have made the time and effort to make it successful. 

I don't post here much as I'm too busy right now burning the proverbial candle at both ends.  And unfortunately I'm not in a position where I can commit to leaving this God forsaken New Socialist Republic of New York for New Hampshire right now or I would have signed up, but hopefully that will change in the near future.

I can understand Elizabeth being upset and whoever stated that it was most likely volunteer burnout, I think they hit the nail on the head.  I can distinctly remember Elizabeth putting in a superhuman amount of time and effort into the Free State Project in the earlier stages and I still applaud her for her efforts.  I think she just butted a few too many heads along the way and it gets tiring after a while.  I know as it's happened to me, just not here.

Anyway, just wanted to throw in my two cents worth.

Rich
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: varrin on December 31, 2006, 08:35:56 am
Officially, the privacy policy covers anyone who has access to the data, but NDA forms are still a 'todo' item. 

*Collecting* them is still a todo item, but we do at least have one developed now.  We are collecting them from new volunteers but haven't collected them from all the existing volunteers yet.  Heck, I haven't even signed it yet...  Yes, that's on the to-do list...

V-

Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: "Hagrid" on December 31, 2006, 09:17:28 am
Elizabeth is one in a long line of (past leadership) folks who have done more to stop potential progress (by naysaying at times).
Not true. Elizabeth is one of the best leaders the FSP ever had, and one of her best traits was a true project manager's focus on results. She was also intelligent, and possessed good judgment and perspective. The gebbeth posting here under Elizabeth's name is the victim of extreme volunteer burnout, what happens when one invests excessive effort into a cause, to the point of obsession. She is not the FSP's only case. She has been further eaten up inside by an internal conflict: feeling bound to honor her commitment to move with the FSP, while being constrained by personal circumstances.

Since I wasn't involved with the FSP during Elizabeth's term, I'll bow to your opinion of her past.  My comment about the long line of folks stands true, it's only her membership in that line in question.

Quote
There are people posting in this very thread who have come close to burnout and losing their marbles;

Indeed.  *Raising hand*  Many say I did burnout and I have lost my marbles, and I concur with that opinion sometimes.
But I got better.

Quote
I've come close enough myself. Let's try to keep the FSP in perspective. If you're an atheist like me, you know that you're just a pretentious ape, and soon you'll be dead and forgotten. If you're religious, then you can look forward to an afterlife with divine reward and punishment. How important is "Liberty in our lifetime" anyway?

Heretic!  Burn him!  There is only one true Free State Project and Jason is its founder! 20K 1000 186 *and growing* moved for the sins of the world to Mecca The Shire so that Liberty may reign!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 31, 2006, 09:32:28 am
Lloyd rocks.   ;D

Are you sure?  He seems more retarded than rocking to me, but then my only experience with him is those repeated posts of his.

Drool......slurppp!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 31, 2006, 09:34:18 am
It's not like the phone calls are made on a regular basis; this was a final push for the F1k. I'm glad Mark was successful. 

We only shot the victim once.  What's he complaining about?
Libertarians are usually better at distinguishing between that which does and does not violate the ZAP/NAP, since our philosophy hinges on it. In the given case, 1-4 robocalls might be bad taste or even annoying, but nothing more.

I understand that you are looking for an acknowledgment, for someone to say, "Yes, I feel your pain, the robocalls were a horrible mistake and they will never happen again." But anecdotal evidence suggests that most of our call recipients (ostensibly libertarian activists) were pleased (pleased to see libertarian activists doing something), and very few were annoyed. This is not surprising: people do not hate robocalls per se, but robocalls combined with the purpose behind them.

The effort succeeded. Libertarians everywhere should be rejoicing. If someone is not rejoicing, I have to question his politics or his sanity. Let's get some perspective: we are in a historic struggle for *justice*, to address gross violations of human rights, and we have 9 flipping pages here of posts about a one-off spate of robocalls?

I might have been responsible for one of those pages.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Rocketman on December 31, 2006, 09:35:05 am

Heretic!  Burn him!  There is only one true Free State Project and Jason is it's founder! 20K 1000 186 *and growing* moved for the sins of the world to Mecca The Shire so that Liberty may reign!


I sure am glad you got better, Seth.   ;D
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Shazer on December 31, 2006, 11:34:15 am

I'm perfectly willing to give him a break, but I have a real problem with computers calling me and tying up my line.  I can't even disconnect.  This is why I came here and asked about it. 


Whether you are listening to a live person or a recording of a live person, the phone system works the same. It takes a couple seconds, not anywhere near 30, for your phone company to terminate the connection.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Shazer on December 31, 2006, 11:37:17 am

Making a mistake is fine, but when she and I tried to talk about it here, we were both attacked on it.  No one said "gee, it might have been a mistake to do this", instead it came across as "what? We have every right to bug the crap out of you since you gave us your number!  Get forked if you don't like it."


I am pretty sure no one here would have "attacked" Elizabeth if her "complaint" was not full of bile and profanity. You cannot expect anyone to take someone like that seriously.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 31, 2006, 11:42:52 am
I'm perfectly willing to give him a break, but I have a real problem with computers calling me and tying up my line.  I can't even disconnect.

Talk with your phone company.  I have no trouble disconnecting robo calls.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 31, 2006, 11:45:14 am
I'm not going to STEP UP in response to a highly objectionable intrusive voice email.  I find your statement pretty craptastic, actually.
I find you to be pretty sad.  Is this Elizabeth's husband?

Quote
I came here politely asking about the guy and this technique, asking please not to use it, and you respond by telling me off for not stepping up to the plate and jumping to sign up after a thing like that?
I was noting that most FSPers didn't volunteer to make the calls, and doubting that you were one of the few who did.  Seems to me all you've done is complain.

Quote
I'm frankly disappointed.  I hope the rest of the first 1000 aren't as generous of spirit as you are.
*yawn*  I hope the rest of our members aren't as uppity as you and Elizabeth are.  Rest assured you'll be replaced if you decide to leave.   ;D
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 31, 2006, 11:46:49 am
Sorry, but I thought one of the tenets of libertarianism wasn't "the ends justify the means".  In fact, that is one of the biggest problems I have with the major parties.  They do anything they have to do to succeed, regardless of whether it's right.

It's "wrong" to call with a recorded message from another FSP member who gives you his personal cel phone number and an open invitation to call him?  You've got problems, sir.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Shazer on December 31, 2006, 11:52:03 am
It's far more of a stretch to imagine a group of fsp volunteers selling lists of fsp member phone numbers than a telemarketing company doing so.  I could be wrong.  Do you find that fsp volunteers generally sell phone lists to third party companies?

It's one thing to trust your number to a small group of supposedly trustworthy volunteers than to trust your number to a third party telemarketing company.  I would consider telemarketing companies, and robot calling companies specifically, among the dregs of industry.  What other industry makes their money based on how intrusive they can be to people at home?

Not a LOT of other industries take money from customers expressly to contact people at home, while they are eating dinner or relaxing, simply because that's the best time to reach them.

For the record, I am not a telemarketing company. I am just a FSP volunteer who happens to be in a financial services industry, and who happens to have alot of equipment hanging around to service my customers.

As has been pointed out, this was the first time I have ever tried to use my system to launch this kind of campaign, which was why alot of people ended up getting a truncated message before the full one. Again, sorry. Believe me, it was a very expensive mistake. Take comfort that I was severely punished for the error.

I do not believe in "telemarketing" or "spamming" people. What I do believe in is getting valuable information into the hands of my customers when I believe they will find it useful and they have consented to be contacted by telephone.

In my industry, the overwhelming majority of customers prefer to deal with automated systems - recordings, interactive voice response, etc. There are a few, such as we have met here in this thread, who clearly do not prefer such interaction. To them, all we can say is, "Sorry, we will mark your number to no longer call."
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Shazer on December 31, 2006, 11:53:57 am
Also, for the record, Shazer is my (MengerFan's) wife. I just noticed she logged in while I wasn't paying attention.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: RalphBorsodi on December 31, 2006, 12:04:19 pm
It's far more of a stretch to imagine a group of fsp volunteers selling lists of fsp member phone numbers than a telemarketing company doing so.  I could be wrong.  Do you find that fsp volunteers generally sell phone lists to third party companies?

It's one thing to trust your number to a small group of supposedly trustworthy volunteers than to trust your number to a third party telemarketing company.  I would consider telemarketing companies, and robot calling companies specifically, among the dregs of industry.  What other industry makes their money based on how intrusive they can be to people at home?

Not a LOT of other industries take money from customers expressly to contact people at home, while they are eating dinner or relaxing, simply because that's the best time to reach them.

For the record, I am not a telemarketing company. I am just a FSP volunteer who happens to be in a financial services industry, and who happens to have alot of equipment hanging around to service my customers.

As has been pointed out, this was the first time I have ever tried to use my system to launch this kind of campaign, which was why alot of people ended up getting a truncated message before the full one. Again, sorry. Believe me, it was a very expensive mistake. Take comfort that I was severely punished for the error.

I do not believe in "telemarketing" or "spamming" people. What I do believe in is getting valuable information into the hands of my customers when I believe they will find it useful and they have consented to be contacted by telephone.

In my industry, the overwhelming majority of customers prefer to deal with automated systems - recordings, interactive voice response, etc. There are a few, such as we have met here in this thread, who clearly do not prefer such interaction. To them, all we can say is, "Sorry, we will mark your number to no longer call."

I worked for a company who offered these automated premium calling services and there is actually quite a few advancements that could have helped.

for instance the services that we sold had the capability to detect when a live person answered the call and immediately would transfer to a live agent (in this way it acted just like a predictive dialer...it could also moderate the number of outgoing calls based on the number of live agents ready to receive transfers) and if no one picked up the phone a personal message would be left on voicemail (inserting the person's name) that you could not tell was a recording

"hello Elizabeth this is Jason callling from the FSP, just wanted to ask you a question about x - could you call me back at 603-xxx-xxxx"

Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: MengerFan on December 31, 2006, 12:24:20 pm
That would have been the best, but I don't think anyone wants my employees talking to people about the FSP.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Soundwave on December 31, 2006, 02:22:32 pm
It's not like the phone calls are made on a regular basis; this was a final push for the F1k. I'm glad Mark was successful. 

We only shot the victim once.  What's he complaining about?

That comparison is just absurd.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: RalphBorsodi on December 31, 2006, 03:24:42 pm
That would have been the best, but I don't think anyone wants my employees talking to people about the FSP.

with VOIP you can direct the transfer to any number you want...
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 04:55:17 pm
It's harder to address real questions and issues about...people paid to get signups...

You have to be kidding.  You have a problem with the FSP doing marketing?????????  Um, marketing…to its OWN members.  Wow.

Hey, wake up.  You're gonna hear my message on your phone whether you want to or not. It's gonna take 30 seconds of your time but you have to hear it whether you want to or not.

Let me get this strait…you find it offensive that the FSP, a movement that you joined and supposedly support, took 30 seconds of your time????????   30 seconds.  You also must be kidding.  What do you think we are doing, selling cutlery?  This is not cold-calling we are talking about….but calls TO OUR OWN MEMBERS…people that support our cause.

If either of you expects the FSP to refrain from contacting its own members, then you either have a very large bug up your ass that needs surgical intervention, or you are two oars short of a row boat.


I said it already but your skull seems to be too think to get through.  I don't mind the fsp contacting me.  I mind being robot called.

Are both your parents retarded too or is it a recessive gene you got from each?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 05:07:22 pm
It's not like the phone calls are made on a regular basis; this was a final push for the F1k. I'm glad Mark was successful. 

We only shot the victim once.  What's he complaining about?
Libertarians are usually better at distinguishing between that which does and does not violate the ZAP/NAP, since our philosophy hinges on it. In the given case, 1-4 robocalls might be bad taste or even annoying, but nothing more.

I understand that you are looking for an acknowledgment, for someone to say, "Yes, I feel your pain, the robocalls were a horrible mistake and they will never happen again." But anecdotal evidence suggests that most of our call recipients (ostensibly libertarian activists) were pleased (pleased to see libertarian activists doing something), and very few were annoyed. This is not surprising: people do not hate robocalls per se, but robocalls combined with the purpose behind them.

The effort succeeded. Libertarians everywhere should be rejoicing. If someone is not rejoicing, I have to question his politics or his sanity. Let's get some perspective: we are in a historic struggle for *justice*, to address gross violations of human rights, and we have 9 flipping pages here of posts about a one-off spate of robocalls?

No, I'm not looking for an acknowledgement, at least not any longer.

I came here asking about it politely, and I've since seen little but personal attacks and bashing for my trouble.

Doing something wrong for the right reasons is wrong.  The fsp might have had a valid purpose to do something, but the means does NOT justify the ends.  If the FSP believes it does, it's wrong.

I'm still here partly to defend myself against the bashers that seem to religiously believe in the fsp leadership, and to see whether the fsp leadership does actually believe doing something wrong with good intentions is acceptable.

Ok, I'm still here more because some idiots have picked a flamewar fight with me for no logical reason.  The other stuff is just added spice.

Just for the record, people DO hate robot calls specifically, regardless of the purpose behind them.  Are you not aware of the push to outlaw these things?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 05:11:14 pm

I'm perfectly willing to give him a break, but I have a real problem with computers calling me and tying up my line.  I can't even disconnect.  This is why I came here and asked about it. 


Whether you are listening to a live person or a recording of a live person, the phone system works the same. It takes a couple seconds, not anywhere near 30, for your phone company to terminate the connection.

Not true.  I can hang up on a robot call, pick up 15 seconds later, and it's STILL connected.

Maybe where you live it's better, but not everywhere does it work as you describe.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 05:17:45 pm

Making a mistake is fine, but when she and I tried to talk about it here, we were both attacked on it.  No one said "gee, it might have been a mistake to do this", instead it came across as "what? We have every right to bug the crap out of you since you gave us your number!  Get forked if you don't like it."


I am pretty sure no one here would have "attacked" Elizabeth if her "complaint" was not full of bile and profanity. You cannot expect anyone to take someone like that seriously.

Her first post used the word "Holy f**k" and called the robotcalls bullshit.  She didn't call the FSP full of bullshit.  She didn't make any personal attacks on people here.  Big Fucking Deal.

There was no reason not to take her seriously.  It was quite obvious she was merely angry about the robotcalls.

There was no reason at all to make personal attacks on her or call her names as some folks did.   People here showed the personal maturity of 8 year olds that have just had their hotdog day cancelled.

More accurately, people here showed the identical reaction as True Believers of the day's religion when their revered leader is criticized.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Soundwave on December 31, 2006, 05:24:02 pm
Sorry, I don't have a leader. Elizabeth was nasty from the start, and that makes her seem like a bitch to some.  *Yawn* - Elizabeth's husband for sure.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 05:26:57 pm
You've got to be kidding me. What is so offensive about getting a phone call from someone you provided your phone number to?

If answering the telephone a couple of times gets those last few sign-ups for the first 1000, why are you not happy about it?

I am going to apologize for the malfunction which made the message cut off early halfway through on Thursday night. That was my bad.

On a personal level, I am rather offended that someone would get so bent out of shape over the few seconds they were inconvenienced by trying to get the last few signers at the very last minute, when someone else incurred the expense of money and time to retool their hardware and software to make all of those contacts possible.

I didn't provide my phone number expecting to get robot called.  If you want to call me, don't have your secretary contact me and put me on hold.  Don't send me a voice mail telling me to call you.  And don't robot call me.  Especially don't REPEATEDLY call me.

It's partly a matter of respect for my time.  If you robot call me, you are telling me that my time is worth nothing to you, because you are willing to waste it and force me to listen to a robot caller.  It's intrusive and worse than email spam.

I find it interesting that you get "offended" that someone else has gotten offended about something.  Tell me, do you get mad at others for others getting mad at you?  That's a technique used by some folk to try to turn the tables.  They do something wrong, and end up getting the victim to apologize.

Someone else spent all their time and expense to retool their systems to make the robot calls possible?  Oh, why didn't you say so?  How could I have been so wrong to object?

Who cares?   How does someone's expense and time justify doing something offensive?  You're really reaching to try to find some way to justify the fsp's actions, aren't you?  Sign of a True Believer.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 05:29:45 pm
I'm perfectly willing to give him a break, but I have a real problem with computers calling me and tying up my line.  I can't even disconnect.

Talk with your phone company.  I have no trouble disconnecting robo calls.

That's hardly an excuse for making robot calls.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Soundwave on December 31, 2006, 05:37:33 pm
There is no need to make excuses because not everyone is angry about the robot calls. You have expressed your feelings on here and I'm sure they have been taken into consideration by those who care. You can't please everyone. The robot calls were an attempt to reach as many people as possible in a short amount of time. If you are so upset about 2 calls that it would deter you from moving, then you probably weren't going to do much when you got here anyway. You continue crying about it, and I'll celebrate the fact that the F1k was successful.

Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 05:39:55 pm
I'm not going to STEP UP in response to a highly objectionable intrusive voice email.  I find your statement pretty craptastic, actually.
I find you to be pretty sad.  Is this Elizabeth's husband?


I find you to be mildly retarded.  Was it caused by lack of oxygen or was it a mutation?

No, I have never met Elizabeth.  Can't you accept that more than one family might have a problem with robot calls?


Quote
I came here politely asking about the guy and this technique, asking please not to use it, and you respond by telling me off for not stepping up to the plate and jumping to sign up after a thing like that?
I was noting that most FSPers didn't volunteer to make the calls, and doubting that you were one of the few who did.  Seems to me all you've done is complain.


I came here and posted politely, at least initially.  After that, YOU immediately jumped on my ass and attacked for no reason.

All you've given me is reason to complain.

Can you not consider that YOU are the problem?  You could have ignored me.  You could have done what others have done and actually FOCUSED on my post.

Instead you acted like a total turd and simply turned it into a question of whether I'm a True Believer or not as well.

Did I "Step Up" and volunteer?  Did I donate money?  Did I sign the first 1000 or even the first 20k?

Those questions are entirely irrelevent to the thread and my post, but you can't understand that because you want to make the question to be about whether or not I'm a true believer!

The question here is whether robot calling is acceptable or not.  MOST people on this thread are discussing THAT.  YOU'VE got a bug up your arse to find out whether I'm going to volunteer my time or money, or whether I'm going to pull out of the effort.

You're a complete true believing twit.



Quote
I'm frankly disappointed.  I hope the rest of the first 1000 aren't as generous of spirit as you are.
*yawn*  I hope the rest of our members aren't as uppity as you and Elizabeth are.  Rest assured you'll be replaced if you decide to leave.   ;D

I'm uppity because I object to robot calls and got bashed for my troubles?  Thus speaks the attitude of a True Believer.

"if I decide to leave".   Do you even read what you write?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 31, 2006, 05:42:04 pm
It's partly a matter of respect for my time.

Seems to me you've got plenty of free time.  You've been posting your rants here all day long.  Don't you have something important to do Mr. Time Challenged?   ::)
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 05:43:28 pm
Sorry, but I thought one of the tenets of libertarianism wasn't "the ends justify the means".  In fact, that is one of the biggest problems I have with the major parties.  They do anything they have to do to succeed, regardless of whether it's right.

It's "wrong" to call with a recorded message from another FSP member who gives you his personal cel phone number and an open invitation to call him?  You've got problems, sir.

I consider robot calling wrong.  I came here politely asking about it.  People here then immediately bashed me.

Regardless of whether robot calling is wrong, the people who have attacked Elizabeth and myself have shown themselves to be wrong for choosing to attack rather than discuss it.

Twit.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 31, 2006, 05:49:09 pm
Can you not consider that YOU are the problem?
I'd consider it, but then I'd remember that my show is the #1 recruiter for the FSP.

Quote
Did I "Step Up" and volunteer?  Did I donate money?  Did I sign the first 1000 or even the first 20k?

Those questions are entirely irrelevent to the thread and my post, but you can't understand that because you want to make the question to be about whether or not I'm a true believer!
I don't know and don't care what you have and haven't done.  I was just jumping down your throat because you deserve it, considering the way you came in here bitching about a call from a fellow FSP member who cared enough to do what it took to get in touch with as many FSPers as possible.

Quote
The question here is whether robot calling is acceptable or not.  MOST people on this thread are discussing THAT.  YOU'VE got a bug up your arse to find out whether I'm going to volunteer my time or money, or whether I'm going to pull out of the effort.
As stated above, I don't give a flip what you do.

Quote
You're a complete true believing twit.
Believing in what?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 05:53:05 pm
It's far more of a stretch to imagine a group of fsp volunteers selling lists of fsp member phone numbers than a telemarketing company doing so.  I could be wrong.  Do you find that fsp volunteers generally sell phone lists to third party companies?

It's one thing to trust your number to a small group of supposedly trustworthy volunteers than to trust your number to a third party telemarketing company.  I would consider telemarketing companies, and robot calling companies specifically, among the dregs of industry.  What other industry makes their money based on how intrusive they can be to people at home?

Not a LOT of other industries take money from customers expressly to contact people at home, while they are eating dinner or relaxing, simply because that's the best time to reach them.

For the record, I am not a telemarketing company. I am just a FSP volunteer who happens to be in a financial services industry, and who happens to have alot of equipment hanging around to service my customers.

As has been pointed out, this was the first time I have ever tried to use my system to launch this kind of campaign, which was why alot of people ended up getting a truncated message before the full one. Again, sorry. Believe me, it was a very expensive mistake. Take comfort that I was severely punished for the error.

I do not believe in "telemarketing" or "spamming" people. What I do believe in is getting valuable information into the hands of my customers when I believe they will find it useful and they have consented to be contacted by telephone.

In my industry, the overwhelming majority of customers prefer to deal with automated systems - recordings, interactive voice response, etc. There are a few, such as we have met here in this thread, who clearly do not prefer such interaction. To them, all we can say is, "Sorry, we will mark your number to no longer call."

Well, I appreciate that you aren't making personal attacks on me here.

It's not a matter of preferring to deal with automated systems.  I don't mind getting into a voice mail system if I initiate the call.  What I don't like is receiving a call from an automated system.

I don't like getting automated calls from anyone, regardless of whether it's merely a message or whether it's a system telling me "press one to talk to a representative about your mortgage" only to find out that it's someone trying to refinance me.

The telemarketing industry has been steadily moving towards voice mail systems.  I'm seeing more and more robot calls.  If your company is doing robot calls to customers or even thinking about doing it, please don't.  You will see a backlash from your customers if you do it, regardless of what your marketing department tells you.

Right now they might be legal, but every time I get one of these things I want to find the systems in question and take a sledgehammer to them.

About the only good thing these things will do is eventually force everyone to own a home voice mail system to block these things.

Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 31, 2006, 05:53:19 pm
Can anyone explain to me how a voice message is different from a regular mailing> No you can't cause there isn't a fundemental difference. If you get a letter you toss it if you don't want it, and with a voice message you just delete it if you don't want to listen.

Voice messages COST ME money - they take up minutes on my phone plan.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 31, 2006, 05:54:05 pm
By the way, who are you nobanana?  (If you're not Elizabeth's husband.)
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 05:54:22 pm
It's not like the phone calls are made on a regular basis; this was a final push for the F1k. I'm glad Mark was successful. 

We only shot the victim once.  What's he complaining about?

That comparison is just absurd.

The comparison is extreme to ridicule the argument.  It doesn't make something ok to do just because it succeeded.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 31, 2006, 05:55:04 pm
It's not like the phone calls are made on a regular basis; this was a final push for the F1k. I'm glad Mark was successful. 

We only shot the victim once.  What's he complaining about?


LOL  ;D
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 05:56:03 pm
Sorry, I don't have a leader. Elizabeth was nasty from the start, and that makes her seem like a bitch to some.  *Yawn* - Elizabeth's husband for sure.

Believe what you want.  You've already shown yourself to be a true believer, and nothing I say will get past your prayers.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 31, 2006, 05:56:18 pm
Let me get this strait…you find it offensive that the FSP, a movement that you joined and supposedly support, took 30 seconds of your time????????   30 seconds.  You also must be kidding.  What do you think we are doing, selling cutlery?  This is not cold-calling we are talking about….but calls TO OUR OWN MEMBERS…people that support our cause.

Four calls to my household.  Two of which were botched.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 05:57:33 pm
There is no need to make excuses because not everyone is angry about the robot calls. You have expressed your feelings on here and I'm sure they have been taken into consideration by those who care. You can't please everyone. The robot calls were an attempt to reach as many people as possible in a short amount of time. If you are so upset about 2 calls that it would deter you from moving, then you probably weren't going to do much when you got here anyway. You continue crying about it, and I'll celebrate the fact that the F1k was successful.



I'm not here still because of the robot calls.  I'm here still because I'm responding to the thread and wondering how far people will go to justify unwarranted attacks on people.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 05:58:31 pm
It's partly a matter of respect for my time.

Seems to me you've got plenty of free time.  You've been posting your rants here all day long.  Don't you have something important to do Mr. Time Challenged?   ::)

It's one thing to choose to waste my time, and another thing when someone else chooses to waste my time.

Are you unclear on the concept?
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 31, 2006, 06:00:57 pm
Sorry, I don't have a leader. Elizabeth was nasty from the start, and that makes her seem like a bitch to some.  *Yawn* - Elizabeth's husband for sure.

Nope.  I'm sure one of the admins could confirm.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 06:05:24 pm
Can you not consider that YOU are the problem?
I'd consider it, but then I'd remember that my show is the #1 recruiter for the FSP.


Irrelevent to the subject.  Are you going to next describe how big your e-penis is, or how much money you make?

Quote

Quote
Did I "Step Up" and volunteer?  Did I donate money?  Did I sign the first 1000 or even the first 20k?

Those questions are entirely irrelevent to the thread and my post, but you can't understand that because you want to make the question to be about whether or not I'm a true believer!
I don't know and don't care what you have and haven't done.  I was just jumping down your throat because you deserve it, considering the way you came in here bitching about a call from a fellow FSP member who cared enough to do what it took to get in touch with as many FSPers as possible.


If you go back and reread my first post, exactly what in it made you feel deserved to be attacked?  I was polite.  I didn't attack anyone. I simply asked if it was really the fsp involved, and to consider not doing further robot calls.

If you believe I deserve to have you jump down my throat for that, then all I can say is you've got bigger problems.

Quote

Quote
The question here is whether robot calling is acceptable or not.  MOST people on this thread are discussing THAT.  YOU'VE got a bug up your arse to find out whether I'm going to volunteer my time or money, or whether I'm going to pull out of the effort.
As stated above, I don't give a flip what you do.

Quote
You're a complete true believing twit.
Believing in what?

It doesn't matter in WHAT you believe.  The fact that I came here and criticized your belief is why you attacked.  I criticized your revered leaders and you felt attacked, regardless of whether it was an attack.  This is similar to why certain religious groups bomb each other.  
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 31, 2006, 06:12:44 pm
Elizabeth was nasty from the start, and that makes her seem like a bitch to some.

Women with strong opinions are bitches.  Hmm...
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Denis Goddard on December 31, 2006, 06:17:24 pm
now it's an all out brawl.
FINALLY!
God sometimes it takes forever for the entertainment to really heat up! ;)

>> Denis gets out the lawn chair, settles in, pops open a cold one
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 31, 2006, 06:32:12 pm
Elizabeth was nasty from the start, and that makes her seem like a bitch to some.

Women with strong opinions are bitches.  Hmm...

Well........then she would be calling herself a bitch.....so....probably not.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on December 31, 2006, 07:52:42 pm
now it's an all out brawl.
FINALLY!
God sometimes it takes forever for the entertainment to really heat up! ;)

>> Denis gets out the lawn chair, settles in, pops open a cold one


I hope you brought enough for everyone.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: MengerFan on December 31, 2006, 08:25:21 pm
Time to go celebrate the new year, and the "success" of First 1000, sponsored by Ian and his brilliant show. Bringing the message of freedom to the common man is no small task. It is one which I aspired to undertake long ago, and have sinced abandoned for earning money and supporting those who have the stomach for it.

I am pleased to have taken a small last minute part in the First 1000, and to have spent several minutes of my valuable time responding to the concerns of a ridiculously small minority of disgruntled parties. I will continue to apologize for the inconvenience. I hope you will continue to open your mind to modern methods of communication.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Elizabeth on December 31, 2006, 08:33:04 pm
Time to go celebrate the new year, and the "success" of First 1000, sponsored by Ian and his brilliant show. Bringing the message of freedom to the common man is no small task. It is one which I aspired to undertake long ago, and have sinced abandoned for earning money and supporting those who have the stomach for it.

I am pleased to have taken a small last minute part in the First 1000, and to have spent several minutes of my valuable time responding to the concerns of a ridiculously small minority of disgruntled parties. I will continue to apologize for the inconvenience. I hope you will continue to open your mind to modern methods of communication.

Robocall spam = modern method of communication...?
So is email spam.

Both rude and unnacceptable.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Soundwave on December 31, 2006, 10:42:30 pm
Sorry, I don't have a leader. Elizabeth was nasty from the start, and that makes her seem like a bitch to some.  *Yawn* - Elizabeth's husband for sure.

Believe what you want.  You've already shown yourself to be a true believer, and nothing I say will get past your prayers.

To suggest I am a "believer" because I happen to side against Elizabeth in this case, only due to her nasty attitude,  is retarded. There are plenty of things the FSP does that I am critical of. This just isn't one of them.


Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 31, 2006, 10:55:10 pm
It doesn't matter in WHAT you believe.  The fact that I came here and criticized your belief is why you attacked.  I criticized your revered leaders and you felt attacked, regardless of whether it was an attack.  This is similar to why certain religious groups bomb each other. 

I don't have leaders, sweetie.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 31, 2006, 10:58:06 pm
Robocall spam = modern method of communication...?
So is email spam.

Both rude and unnacceptable.

Email spam is by definition unwanted emails usually by total strangers you did not opt in to.

These calls were made by a fellow FSP member who gave his personal cel phone number... did you call him to complain before you came here?  You opted into them by giving your phone number.  You've now decided to opt out.  Not spam.  Toodles!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: lloydbob1 on January 01, 2007, 12:14:37 am
It doesn't matter in WHAT you believe.  The fact that I came here and criticized your belief is why you attacked.  I criticized your revered leaders and you felt attacked, regardless of whether it was an attack.  This is similar to why certain religious groups bomb each other. 

I don't have leaders, sweetie.

Bow Down Before Shorty Dawkins!
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on January 01, 2007, 01:58:08 am
Time to go celebrate the new year, and the "success" of First 1000, sponsored by Ian and his brilliant show. Bringing the message of freedom to the common man is no small task. It is one which I aspired to undertake long ago, and have sinced abandoned for earning money and supporting those who have the stomach for it.

I am pleased to have taken a small last minute part in the First 1000, and to have spent several minutes of my valuable time responding to the concerns of a ridiculously small minority of disgruntled parties. I will continue to apologize for the inconvenience. I hope you will continue to open your mind to modern methods of communication.

I'm all for modern methods of communication.  However, robot calling is only a modern method of telemarketing, not communication.

Communication is 2 way.  Robot calling is simply blasting your message at people.



Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on January 01, 2007, 02:00:40 am
It doesn't matter in WHAT you believe.  The fact that I came here and criticized your belief is why you attacked.  I criticized your revered leaders and you felt attacked, regardless of whether it was an attack.  This is similar to why certain religious groups bomb each other. 

I don't have leaders, sweetie.

Yes, you do.  It's the fsp with the goal of making the first 1000 succeed.  Anything that's done in the name of success is good and any questioning of methods is bad, which is why you attacked me when I questioned it.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: nobanana on January 01, 2007, 02:06:17 am
Robocall spam = modern method of communication...?
So is email spam.

Both rude and unnacceptable.

Email spam is by definition unwanted emails usually by total strangers you did not opt in to.

These calls were made by a fellow FSP member who gave his personal cel phone number... did you call him to complain before you came here?  You opted into them by giving your phone number.  You've now decided to opt out.  Not spam.  Toodles!

This has already been argued.  Giving someone your email address doesn't mean that you want them to start blasting you with junk email.  It would still be spam. 

It's a matter of reasonable expectations.  If you give your address to a company, you can reasonably expect to receive junk mail.  If you give your email address to a company, you can reasonably expect marketing email from them only.  If you give them your phone number, you can reasonably expect their sales people will call you, LIVE.

Do you give your email address out to friends thinking that they would initiate spam on you?  No, because you have reasonable expectations that your friends wouldn't abuse your email address.

We gave the fsp our phone numbers with reasonable expectations of not having our numbers abused.

I, as well as obviously Elizabeth, consider robot calling something people would NOT reasonably expect.  It's a form of number abuse.

Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: jhiggin on January 01, 2007, 04:07:11 am
i prefer the robo call rather than a person, maybe it's just me and my INTP personality =/.
Title: Re: computer calling?
Post by: Dreepa on January 01, 2007, 10:16:24 am
Damn  these are good threads.  Wow things go crazy when I am not in NH... the universe must not be balanced!  I am not leaving in JAN.
Sweet F1K made it.


(Lloyd if I was ever mad at you I apologize... I had tears coming out of my eyes.)