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FSP -- General Discussion => The Friendly Forum => Topic started by: Drew23 on November 28, 2006, 11:11:56 am

Title: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: Drew23 on November 28, 2006, 11:11:56 am
Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!

Does this statement bother you? If so you probably dogmatically hold on to you beliefs, and reject absolute liberty. I find the statement liberating. For me the statement says, "don't hold on to your beliefs and we are all absolutely free.

Does this seem naive? I don't think the statement is naive, but I do think is worth meditating on the implications the statement holds.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: Transition_Force on November 28, 2006, 07:19:52 pm
The statement is equally dangerous to liberty

Nothing is true = you have no rights
Everything is permitted = go ahead, plunder, steal, rape, murder, it doesn't matter!
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: Cyro on December 04, 2006, 09:22:24 pm
It's just an extention of the normal anarcho-capitalist perversion.

Anarchy equates to Chaos after all.  ::)
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: braddogg on December 27, 2006, 04:02:52 pm
Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!

Does this statement bother you? If so you probably dogmatically hold on to you beliefs, and reject absolute liberty. I find the statement liberating. For me the statement says, "don't hold on to your beliefs and we are all absolutely free.

Does this seem naive? I don't think the statement is naive, but I do think is worth meditating on the implications the statement holds.

The saying is self-contradictory.  If nothing is true, then how can the statement that nothing is true be true?  It's impossible to say nothing is true.  It's like saying you want to play with your square ball -- no, you want to play with your cube, because "square ball" is self-contradictory.

I certainly appreciate the sentiment, and I agree that people use "morality" to argue stupid points.  Growing up, we were all beaten over the head with the argument from morality from teachers, parents, clergymen, and politicians.  But, I don't think the solution is total moral relativism.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: Forastero on December 30, 2006, 06:04:54 pm
Please....no more of this stupid new age garbage. Does an objective morality exist? I dont know. Although I dont think Christians or anyone else has a monolply on morality, it also doesnt mean that "everything is true, nothing is wrong!" type garbage.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: dj2007 on January 17, 2007, 08:18:45 pm
"Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!"

This is when, in real life, I'd give you a kick in the shin. You'd protest, and I'd say it isn't really true that I kicked you because nothing is really true, and that anyway, who are you to judge my kicking you, since everything is permitted.

At that point, you'd either say something snide and walk off (if you were smaller than me or had a cool temperament) or punch me in the face (if you were bigger than me or had a hot temperament).

Where as, had we both believed in an reality such that it is either true that I kicked your or isn't true, and believed that evidence can help us tell the difference (evidence like your red shin, my remembering kicking you), and had we both believed that going around kicking people without reason other than powerlust is bad, we'd probably have been able to use our time more productively than by engaging in violence and exchanging snide remarks.

In other words, maybe it isn't possible to know everything in the universe with absolute certainty, and maybe there isn't anyone who'll roast me in hell for ignoring certain absolute prohibitions, but that doesn't mean reality and ethics fly out the window.

See also: iterated prisoner's dilemma.

Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: apotheosis23 on July 29, 2009, 01:42:33 pm
The term "nothing is true, everything is permitted" is purposefully deceptive.  It is not referring to some political statement, but rather to the state of the universe.  The past exists as a probability.  It's existence is only solidified by those observing it, or those believing in the chain of events that led to the present.  It is no more solid or real than the future.  The future is manipulated by changing the present, by creating a course of actions that will potentially lead to a desired outcome.  The present may be manipulated by "changing" the past.  By changing one's perspective of the past, you actually change it.  The outcome of course depends on a lot of things including the probability of an event having occurred and also the number of observers.  Quantum physics recognize now what mystics have known for millenia.  The present exists as absolute zero.  Therefore it has no value, it cannot be measured.  Blah blah blah. nothing IS true, everything is permitted.  The present state of the universe is the only one that exists and therefore it is the only thing that is true.  The present cannot be measured or represented, it is an absolute that can only be represented by one thing.  NOTHING.  As above so below.  You cannot change the microcosm without changing the macrocosm.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: mattlambrecht on August 03, 2009, 05:06:18 pm
I have a better idea. How about: "Everything that isn't anyone else's business is permitted". Like if I wanna smoke some dank herbs when I get home from work then that's my choice, but if I try to steal your stereo, you can shoot me in the face. Deal?  :D lol I have a very simple ethical philosophy.

And I agree with the guy talking about the implications of quantum theory, but I would hesitate to make all those statements without really understanding quantum theory from a physicists perspective. (Not that I do either, but I'm working on it lol). But personally, I think it's one thing to say that the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle ensures an inherent randomness based on various waves of probabilities of tendencies for packets of energy to exist within regions of space-time at the quantum level of observation, and a whole other thing to say that "Nothing is true". I mean its kind of true, but I kind of lean towards the Copenhagen idea that there isn't really a deep reality to be dealt with. Quantum theory is inherently limited by our minds ability to comprehend the nature of reality. Although, I do have some ideas (as opposed to beliefs), that conciousness is the underlying binding factor in the space-time continuum and that our thoughts influence entropy and extropy based on their negativity or positivity, which permeates different layers of reality, VIA the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle. So in that case, I do agree with all those conclusions, but also that certain states of mind cause certain things (whether or not through some seemingly magical manipulation of matter with mind, at least through our actions and words), and therefore we have a very basic personal moral responsibility to cultivate loving and peaceful mind states rather than hatred and oppression.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: nick888 on November 18, 2009, 10:44:59 am
Why don't you think about it like that: Supposing EVERY statement after the "nothing is true" clause is really NOT true, then the "everything is permitted" clause is NOT true as well... That makes it a "Nothing is permitted" clause!! (Well you don't really know, since "nothing is true" could be "not true" itself..!)
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: creaganlios on November 18, 2009, 12:11:52 pm
If nothing is true, and everything is permitted, on what grounds could you say:

"Forcible sex with a 5 year old is wrong?"

Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: idkiduk on December 02, 2009, 04:54:40 am
 I think by true, the quote doesn't mean real, but pure. As in true gold for example. Nothing is absolute, pure, solid, there is not black and white, there's just shades of grey. I would change the quote to nothing is absolute, everything is permitted.. but then again I'm not the one who said it so I don't have that power.

 I personally find it an escape for something I realised a long time ago. Allot of people live their lives inside the confines of their reality. Somehow thinking that stepping out of it will result in eternal damnation or arrest, or being frowned upon. But only by getting past that can we reach our full potential. A couple of examples:  Christopher McCandless! Graduated high school top of his class, two very successfull parents, sister... one day gave away his $25,000, burnt all the money in his wallet and dissapeared. Hiked all up and down the country for two years before, unfotuanately, dying in Alaska.
 Hitler... well we all know that story... but look at Germany now and then, even though the cost was great, it's a much better place because of it! Possibly the world's a better place because of it! Maybe not the best of examples, but the fact is they're remembered! They have had amazing, completely unique experiences! Fact is, unless you step out of the "truth" IE: wealth, family, status, reputation, religion, inhibitions, fears and on and on...  you will NOT be remembered! and 50 years after you're lain to rest, no one will visit your grave, and no one will remember those realy nice pies you used to make................
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: lloydbob1 on December 02, 2009, 07:28:05 am
Why give this a minutes thought?
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: crimsonshadow on December 15, 2009, 01:33:23 am
The thing about this is it doesn't mean you are free do do as you please, simply, do not take things as they appear, the world can be a very tricky place, smoke and mirrors, be wise, not free to do whatever you want. Everything is permitted, whatever you need to do to keep yourself safe and in that time, protect the brotherhood, you would do. Because in the end you went to God. Don't believe it means you can rape and murder, accept it as a way to be free of any sort of boundary of yourself. If you want to run, run, if you want to free-run, free-run, if you want to wrestle, wrestle. Etc.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: WendellBerry on December 15, 2009, 09:38:11 am
Quote
two very successful parents

How do you define success?

The reason for this person's wanderlust WAS his parents...
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: newtimer on March 28, 2010, 02:39:16 pm
Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!

Is that true?

Is it true that nothing is true?

Is it the true that everything is permitted? I think people who are in jail would disagree with that. And the people who are entirely sure that they can develop "free electricity machines" but never do.

What I'm getting at is the only possible way of proving that statement to be true is to prove it false, since its a self-contradiction. Therefore, the statement "nothing is true" is false.

(For some reason this is post is high on Google and getting traffic so I thought I'd feed the fire.)
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: watson.shane on April 01, 2010, 04:32:23 am
However, I personally tend to lean more towards an ethical understanding of "nothing is true", meaning that nothing anyone says about how we should be or should act is true and that everything we could ever think of doing within the realm of actual possibility in this physical reality is permitted to happen, and so it does.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: Uncle Walt on April 14, 2010, 12:57:37 pm
Don't believe it means you can rape and murder, accept it as a way to be free of any sort of boundary of yourself.

But by not believing it means you can rape/murder ... you are putting a boundary on yourself.

Actually, by believing in not putting boundaries on yourself - you are putting a boundary on yourself.  As anything that would put a boundary on you, is "out of bounds" with your belief in no boundaries.   ;D
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: greap on April 14, 2010, 01:20:17 pm
Its a shame more porcs are not gamers :) The phrase has been recently popularised by the extremely good Assassins Creed series.

It was supposedly spoken by Hassan-i Sabbah, who was the master of the Nizari Isma'ilis (believed to be a group of Muslim assassins active nearly a millennia ago), on his deathbed. There is lots to learn from many different cultures but I think we can do without the wisdom of the leader of a band of murderous thugs :)
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: Polemic on April 14, 2010, 04:40:37 pm
I would suggest not using quantum mechanics to support any epistemological, ontological, or other philosophical position.

Referring to probability, randomness, observers, etc in the context of quantum theory all pertain to the models propagated by physicists to explain observed phenomenon in terms of a causal universe. However, because such models assume causality, an inherently unprovable concept, further extrapolations are untenable.

When lay people discuss this topic, it seems that everyone confuses the map with the territory and, because the uncertainty principle describes a map of nothing or a map of one attribute at a time, we arrogantly conclude that there is no territory, or that the territory is violable, or that it is our consciousness, etc.

While some of these conclusions are problematic, at best, they are hardly 'true' in any rational sense of the word.
So to use any part of quantum theory as a premise for a philosophical argument is to build a castle on shifting sands.

Donating my $ .02

Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: rossby on April 14, 2010, 04:47:51 pm
So to use any part of quantum theory as a premise for a philosophical argument is to build a castle on shifting sands.

There's an inherent acceptance in there that such arguments can be concluded with absolute certainty. Referring back to the scientific method, a castle built on shifting sand isn't necessarily undesirable: it's far simpler to move the castle if you later find out that patch of sand is very bad real estate. In many cases, sand may be the best we have. ;)
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: Polemic on April 14, 2010, 07:02:52 pm
There's an inherent acceptance in there that such arguments can be concluded with absolute certainty. Referring back to the scientific method, a castle built on shifting sand isn't necessarily undesirable: it's far simpler to move the castle if you later find out that patch of sand is very bad real estate. In many cases, sand may be the best we have. ;)

Absolutely! And since real estate is all about location, it's prudent to point out that some areas are shiftier than others.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: rossby on April 14, 2010, 08:05:21 pm
There's an inherent acceptance in there that such arguments can be concluded with absolute certainty. Referring back to the scientific method, a castle built on shifting sand isn't necessarily undesirable: it's far simpler to move the castle if you later find out that patch of sand is very bad real estate. In many cases, sand may be the best we have. ;)

Absolutely! And since real estate is all about location, it's prudent to point out that some areas are shiftier than others.

Why, some can disappear and reappear altogether. Fascinating...
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: Sam A. Robrin on April 15, 2010, 12:54:30 pm
For me the statement says, "Don't hold on to your beliefs and we are all absolutely free."

Any statement about which you can say, "For me the statement says," isn't much of a statement.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: WindsOfPlague on June 07, 2010, 02:56:33 pm
Who are we to say what is and what is not truth?
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: s man on June 10, 2010, 01:02:52 pm
in my opinion the statment talks about mind over matter, as in if you belive you can do it, you can do it
nothing to it
ps yes, i just signed up to say this, wat a noob :-[
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: MBFT on July 09, 2010, 01:07:15 am
I'm going to borrow incite and add my two cents.

This statement can be manipulated to mean a number of things so, I'd choose to look at the language or words chosen.

"Nothing is true," - I agree, though not normally used in American English, true can easily mean pure in it's purpose or completeness. This is especially accurate if you consider the effect human perception has on actual pure forces or objects. True becomes at least slightly lost once something is perceived and even further deranged in memory over time.

"everything is permitted." - This is very interesting. The word that needs to be focused on is permitted. If something is permitted then there is a party, law, norm, or force of nature that is giving permission. This implies that everything is first approved or subject to something else which allows it to happen.

Nothing is pure by way of human perception, everything can be done only within the confines of what one is either allowed to do or able to do.

Rewording it this way implies there may be some things one can not do, yet other things can be done by way of determining what something is or how it acts in a pure state. If we can not ascertain the pure state of said force or object we can only attempt to come as close as possible. Given the human condition the most perfect state attained is in the moment, all other states are only subjective perceptions recalled as memory. So again I reword it one last time.

Nothing is what it seems, pay attention to the now, your perception is one of many forces known or unknown that confine you as human. (deal with it, not in a colloquial sarcastic way but rather take the deck and deal, for a great part of your reality is really only yours)
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: FreedomFred on July 09, 2010, 08:09:29 am
If "Nothing is true" is true, then that statement would be in contradiction with itself.
Therefore, the statement "Nothing is true" is false, Q.E.D.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: MBFT on July 09, 2010, 09:12:57 am
If "Nothing is true" is true, then that statement would be in contradiction with itself.
Therefore, the statement "Nothing is true" is false, Q.E.D.


This is absolutely correct, thus one assumes that if the party that created this statement understood the logical flaw they would have intended for the word "true" to mean pure or wholly complete. It is an assumption, for if the party was not aware of this, the entire statement can be seen as rubbish. Also, even if interpreted as I did, I'm not sure these two premises alone would constitute a complete argument.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: FreedomFred on July 09, 2010, 10:19:33 am
It would seem that little things like "logic" and "rationality" are lost on most people.  >:(
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: MBFT on July 09, 2010, 02:42:00 pm
It would seem that little things like "logic" and "rationality" are lost on most people.  >:(

Ah this is an assumption just as I made, yet I think we might be able to prove yours quite easily as accurate. ;) This is what should be discussed, especially given the current state of things and the forum we are in.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: FreedomFred on July 09, 2010, 08:05:37 pm
We have to allow the natural self-organizing dynamics of human interaction to take hold.  The "truth" will attend to itself. Humans can be amazing creatures if we just let them.  ;D
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: Irkou on November 13, 2010, 07:59:26 am
you are all too focused on the words and not on the meaning that the author was trying to convey.. i believe that the author was trying to say that nothing that anybody seas about who you should be or how you should act is true..meaning that the "rules" of society are meaningless and that whatever you would like to do in this world you can...the problem is that most people do not believe the first statement therefore the second one cannot be followed as well..example: you cannot do what your heart desires if you believe that success in life is achieved through money and power (rules of society) therefore some things are not permitted by your mind..

keep in mind that this statement was spoken a thousand years ago in another language..the words may have been translated correctly but what the assassin was trying to say may have been lost in time..

in my opinion :)
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: Fkz_Assassin on January 03, 2011, 12:27:31 pm
Think about it.

This is math no one can do.

Nothing is true <.. Which means that's not true <... which means everything is true, making the quote true again, which makes it untrue, which makes it true AGAIN .. it can go on infinite times.. So that's the answer, it means what you want it to mean because everything is permitted, meaning whatever makes your own life better
THEN DO IT !

It's like a fight between is god real or not ? that's not the point. point is it helps those who do, and helps those who don't.
it benefits one and all so this saying may have no meaning to it at all

Millions of people stutter a word on their death bed before they die, maybe he was in that bed because he thought something to be true that wasn't true..
so from his personal experience he didn't want others to fall for what he had fallen for ?
This can be argued back and forth.. An answer won't come out from it, it's purely about what you believe and want to believe.

personally, Nothing is true.. means to me.. don't believe anyone other than yourself.
and everything is permitted can mean, do as you please in life.. i do not bide by the law. because no one controls my life other than me & that does not mean i want to kill or do morally wrong things just because i am free, those who are truly free in my opinion do not feel the need to do things like that unless provoked just like the animals we are. :)
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: swamp_yankee on January 03, 2011, 04:47:40 pm
I once had a two year running fight with a MC affiliated with the Hell's Angels. I wonder how all these libertines and anarchists think they are going to pursuade everyone else to indulge in their fantasies about human nature. That somehow, without ordered liberty, the masses are going to voluntarily subscribe to labor theory, pacifism and all these other fantasies about life in a state of nature being something other than nasty and brutish.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: V on January 11, 2011, 01:32:48 pm
the phase is shorthand for a larger one. Using the few words we have and accounting the motives of the speaker and his background, one can deduce that it is a teaching formulae.

"when men are held back by knowledge and lies remember, nothing is true. where men are at the mercy of authority and law remember, everything is permitted."
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: Nelbium on January 17, 2011, 08:54:44 pm
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted."

Each person on Earth sees the universe only through their own eyes.  This view on the universe gives them their truth, their reality.  But every person has their own view that no one else shares.  With only one view of the universe how can you say what truth is.  One man's truth could be another mans lie.  There is no way to view the universe from another person's eyes so we will only have our own personal truth.

Everything that is physically possible at the moment is permitted.  At any moment in life you can rip off your clothes and run down the street, but only if you permit yourself to do that action.  Anything that you wish to do has been permitted by yourself and since you gave yourself permission to do it, it is not considered wrong in your eyes.

Basically I think that this is saying that through only one man's eyes you cannot determine truth and through one man's eyes everything that person allows themselves to do is permitted.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: Gnome on February 02, 2011, 07:03:57 pm
Creation - Cosmos - Allah - Dao - all are Unknowable concepts = "nothing is True"

"Everything is permitted" = its up to YOU to decide and ACT

V
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: rxcosta on February 09, 2011, 02:06:39 am
I enjoy this phrase because it quickly (albeit rather simply) explains my personal views on relativism, and can also encompass my philosophical beliefs which have been altered by studying quantum physics.

I think you can believe that nothing is true, that all truths are beliefs and all those beliefs are relative. Part of believing that nothing is true is allowing someone to believe that everything is true. You can't successfully argue against someone that believes that nothing is true because nothing is true to them, not even their belief! I don't consider my beliefs to be absolutely true, I believe what I do because right now i think my beliefs make the most sense.

About any argument stating that this saying "nothing is true, everything is permitted" allows or perhaps inspires anarchy and anomie: denying absolute truths still leaves people free to be utterly and passionately opposed to torture (wikipedia entry on relativism, http://www-staff.lboro.ac.uk/~ssde/Death%20and%20furniture.pdf).
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: dan0970 on September 02, 2011, 06:58:47 am
Consider an apocalyptic statement: "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted." - - Hassan i Sabbah. Not to be interpreted as an invitation to all manner of restrained and destructive behavior; that would be a minor episode, which would run its course. Everything is permitted because nothing is true. It is all make-believe, illusion, dream...ART. When art leaves the frame and the written word leaves the page - - not merely the physical frame and page, but the frames and pages of assigned categories - - a basic disruption of reality itself occurs: the literal realization of art.

http://www.haring.com/cgi-bin/art_search_lrg.cgi?id=00065&search=Burroughs
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: VoluntaryMan on April 19, 2012, 09:17:33 pm
Sorry for reviving an other thread but I wanted to mention a very interesting use of this phrase in The Illuminatus! Trilogy by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson.
If I remember correctly, the idea was that since most people are so brainwashed with the status-quo the best way to break them out of the cycle was to give them this phrase to cause them to question everything.
While I don't agree with the semantics of the phrase I can't help but appreciate anything that causes people to look at the world critically and not rely merely on what the man tells them is right or wrong.

just a thought.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: TJames on April 22, 2012, 03:15:34 am
Hey you know what? Ayn Rand was an atheist and she believed truth existed even if we didn't know what it was, that we are morally required to seek it no matter what dogma was spoofed to us. Buddha has been dead for 3,000 years and his philosophy is that of a sheltered Hindu who had an emotional breakdown. The idea that we are a pan-god that can make truth simply by will power made sense back then, but it didn't work for Rand. If nothing is truth, than everything is truth, so both are false, and so I'm not a Buddhist.

I'm not endorsing atheism or any other religion. Just truth, whatever it may be. If you give-up seeking it than you are an intellectual slug and I don't want to know you.

I anthologize if I sound a little angry. Truth and freedom are the two things worth blood.
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: TJames on April 22, 2012, 03:17:50 am
I enjoy this phrase because it quickly (albeit rather simply) explains my personal views on relativism, and can also encompass my philosophical beliefs which have been altered by studying quantum physics.

I think you can believe that nothing is true, that all truths are beliefs and all those beliefs are relative. Part of believing that nothing is true is allowing someone to believe that everything is true. You can't successfully argue against someone that believes that nothing is true because nothing is true to them, not even their belief! I don't consider my beliefs to be absolutely true, I believe what I do because right now i think my beliefs make the most sense.

About any argument stating that this saying "nothing is true, everything is permitted" allows or perhaps inspires anarchy and anomie: denying absolute truths still leaves people free to be utterly and passionately opposed to torture (wikipedia entry on relativism, http://www-staff.lboro.ac.uk/~ssde/Death%20and%20furniture.pdf).


Can something be a truth if no one believes it?
Title: Re: Nothing is true, Everything is permitted!
Post by: VoluntaryMan on April 26, 2012, 09:20:48 pm
Can something be a truth if no one believes it?
I think you'll find that people believe some pretty bizarre things, although obviously not all bizarre things are truth.
Truth has so far been proven to be objective, although many people still lie and many people still fall for others' lies.