Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: colovion on March 30, 2006, 10:11:30 pm

Title: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: colovion on March 30, 2006, 10:11:30 pm
I've been hearing about the FSP for some time now, and due to recent developments in my home state of Michigan I've been seriously contemplating a move to someplace, well, sane.  What do I mean?  Michigan has a lousy economy right now, and the usual suspects (the unions are pretty powerful around here) have been pushing for a minimum wage hike.  They were getting signatures to get an ammendment to the state constitution guaranteeing that the minimum wage would go up based on inflation every year... and since there was something like 70% approval for this in polls the Republican led legislature decided to head them off at the pass and raise the minimum wage from $5.15 to (eventually) $7.40.  The Democratic governor signed the bill, and thus a state that is in dire need of job development just chose to make in more expensive for employers to hire employees.  Call me crazy, but that's not exactly a recipe for success in my book!

Here's my situation:  I'm a 28 year old college grad (History degree, what was I thinking?) who currently works in law enforcement (lucky to have a job in this state!) with a pregnant wife and a fear of sweeping socialism wiping out any chances of gainful employment in the future.  I lean more Republican/Conservative in my political views, but mainly because I'm a hardcore Capitalist and can't stand Democrats/Liberals.  I love Libertarian economic ideas, but I'm not sold on the social aspects (such as legalizing drugs... freedom to rot your brain isn't the kind of thing that stokes my patriotic fires.)  I'm christian but not overly religious (I do believe in evolution for instance).  I'm a member of the NRA and various "outdoors" organizations (such as BASS) and love to read anything and everything I can get my hands on (Atlas Shrugged being my favorite book.)

FSP sounds great... but some of these messages make it seem like I'm not "freedom loving" enough, so to speak.  I'm not against the Iraq War, I'm a huge supporter of it.  I voted for Bush, and have very few regrets (not enough to change my vote if I had it to do over.)  I'm pro-law enforcement.  I don't have any fear of video cameras in public, RFID chips tracking my every move, LEIN, etc.  Does this make me incompatible with FSP?  On the surface it wouldn't appear so, I wouldn't push for cameras in public but rather wouldn't object to them for instance... but I'm still trying to feel this thing out.  Where can I get the real skinny on the FSP views on these issues (without having to try to read a billion messages on these boards)?
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: David Wolfe on March 30, 2006, 10:41:31 pm
You should leave Michigan.  Do you know why Ohio is so clean?  It's because Michigan sucks.  Seriously, I'm new to the FSP and in no way a spokesman or representative, but I believe you'd be comfortable in the organization.  It would be a mistake if we began rejecting people who weren't libertarian enough, and I have not heard of any official FSP positions on the issues you mentioned.  A lot of people in the organization would disagree with you on some issues, but most would agree that 20,000 libertarianish movers is better than 1,000 isolated true believers.  If you don't seek out arguments with those who disagree with you, you'll get along fine.  Besides, you can always visit Michigan.  Just go west until you smell it then north until you step in it.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: margomaps on March 30, 2006, 10:45:29 pm
I can't speak for anyone else in the FSP, but I'll give you my honest assessment:

You support the Iraq war, the president's performance, and the use of cameras and RFID to surveil citizens.  I would guess that probably 9 out of 10 FSP members would have a visceral and negative reaction to your stances on these issues.  A sizable percentage of participants would probably characterize themselves as "liberal" (i.e. supportive of personal liberties, including the freedom to rot one's own brain if he so chooses) -- and you've already stated that you can't stand them.  On the other hand, there are certainly conservative-leaning FSP members with whom you might agree on many issues.

As far as getting the "real skinny" from the FSP, the members are the FSP -- hence your best bet is to read the billions of messages.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Roycerson on March 30, 2006, 11:00:22 pm
Who say's you have to join the FSP to move to a freer state?

Have you read the SOI (Statement of Intent)?

If you can agree with the SOI (doesn't sound like you do) then sign it and move.

If you don't agree then don't sign it and move.


P.S.  When you move make sure you send an LTE to the major newspapers in your area and tell them why you're leaving.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: JasonPSorens on March 30, 2006, 11:14:02 pm
Welcome, colovion. The FSP isn't a lockstep movement, but there are certain core principles, expressed in the Statement of Intent. You might be interested in the organization Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP), to learn more about the reasons we oppose drug/alcohol/tobacco prohibition:
http://www.leap.cc/ .
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: freedomroad on March 30, 2006, 11:37:54 pm
I can't speak for anyone else in the FSP, but I'll give you my honest assessment:

You support the Iraq war, the president's performance, and the use of cameras and RFID to surveil citizens.  I would guess that probably 9 out of 10 FSP members would have a visceral and negative reaction to your stances on these issues. 

Although I am in the Army and against the War in Iraq because Bush promised in 2000 that it would not happen and because it is unconstitutional, I don't care what his opinion in it is because it is not a state or local issue.  The FSP is not about national issues like war and Bush.  Also, I don't care about RFIDs, either.  I have more important things to worry about than private companies tracking me down.

I think colovion will become more pro-freedom if he moves to NH.  It takes time, you know.

I highly suggest that colovion joins as a Friend of the FSP and sign-up for the newsletter.  Think about the SOI and in a month or so, if you are still excited about the FSP, join as a member.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: anticorp on March 31, 2006, 01:14:19 am
Yes, Colovion, there is a price to pay for a consistant philosophy!  I'm sure everyone on these boards has SOME  disagreements on specific issues, but to my understanding that's not what this is about.  NH bound makes a good point that it takes time to get used to the idea of freedom ... we've all been so conditioned for so long to believe in democracy -- that the majority rules.  Democracy runs amuck when it over-rides the REAL spirit of the American revolution, which is Constitutionally guaranteed liberties to all ... especially those whose ways don't enjoy majority support!  Libertarianism is a mouthful in many ways, but it comes closest to the American Dream I was promised as a child (back in the 50's) ... that this is a land of liberty.  It's a bit much to swallow, the idea that having liberty means allowing liberty, and in deed, defending liberty ... as in, "I may not agree with what You say, but I will fight to defend Your right to say it!"  This is the cost of living in the land I want to live in, where freedom is the rule ... and not the exception!
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: colovion on March 31, 2006, 09:20:14 am
It isn't that I disagree with the SOI, but "liberty" is an abstract term.  For example, one should be free to conduct one's business in public with a reasonable expectation that if a crime happens to them the police will investigate it.  The best case scenario would be for there to be a police officer happening by to see the crime happen, it would be an open and shut case and justice would be essentially assured.  However, cops can't be everywhere.   There is no fundamental difference between having a cop sitting there patrolling the area physically or having a cops camera system watch the area, at least in my view.  Hence the reason I don't object to cameras... you really don't have an expectation of privacy while you're out "in public."

As I said, I wouldn't be pushing for cameras, but I don't find them to be inconsistent with anything in the SOI, indeed I'd say they bolster the "protection of life" since they can be a deterrent.

As for drug prohibition... it's a complicated subject.  I agree that if you're in your own home, what you drink, smoke, inject, etc. is your business, not the governments.  But, as I said before, I'm not crazy about the idea of fighting for someone's right to rot their brains out... it certainly isn't a priority.  It really would be consistent with liberty to allow this, of course... but I'd kick my son's keister if he became a druggie, I wouldn't condone it for a second.  See what I mean?  Either I'm a hypocrite because I think drugs should be prohibited for the people I care about and am responsible for, or I'm a hypocrite because I know full well the government should have no say in the matter but want them to prohibit it to make my life easier.  But the drug war isn't being won, so perhaps that's the deciding factor.

I'm really just sick and tired of people expecting the government to take care of their needs, essentially enslaving themselves to the government, and saying I'm a greedy jerk for expecting people to take care of themselves and not leach off others.  I'm sick of the gun control crowd trying to disarm law abiding people out of a misguided concern that the law abiding people are the one's that should be feared.  I'm sick of politicians who don't know jack about economics wrtting horrible laws and telling the citizens (who by and large are just as economically ignorant) that these laws are good for them.  I'm sick of schools graduating students who hate western civilization, can't read and can't find the United States on a globe.  But I really can't do anything about it while I'm in Michigan, I'm outnumbered and outvoted for the most part.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: sandm000 on March 31, 2006, 09:49:32 am
THe problem you are going to see with advocating the use of those cameras is twofold, firstly who is responsible for purchasing the cameras, and secondly who is going to monitor them for you. THen where does the money for these items and come from? the taxpayers?  And when the FSPers refuse to pay their taxes (as in RK & KD refusing to pay property taxes) how do you get the money? Do you go in and seize their house?  Because then sir, you have initiated the use of force for a social program.

Now, I don't think that privately owned survaillence cameras would have any of those objections. The owner of a parcel of property (be it their driveway, backyard, place of business etc) has everyright to monitor what's going on there.  And if he wants to pay someone to watch the video for him, there would be no problem.

The same arguments can be made for any social program currently in existence, as well as fire and police departments.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Roycerson on March 31, 2006, 10:15:21 am


I tend to agree with you on the cameras.  It's no different than a cop watching personally and many here do believe law enforcement to be a legitimate function of government.  As far as the drugs go.  Arguing for legalization (decriminalization) doesn't make you a hypocrite.  I don't think toddlers should carry around their own bag of potato chips but not wanting that to be illegal doesn't mean I endorse it.  Neither to I encourage people to play the lottery but wouldn't arrest someone for it.  So it turns out you are as libertarian as a great many in this organization.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: mvpel on March 31, 2006, 11:36:18 am
The great thing about New Hampshire is that we're all living within arguing distance of one another.

We're by no means a lockstep, monolithic group - there's a lively free market of ideas here, and that's what's been so exciting and productive about it.  Some people want to abolish government entirely, others want to minimize its role in society, some believe that we can free ourselves from Federal interference, others think that's idle fantasy, some are ardent advocates of the right to armed self-defense, others work on the RFID issue, etc.

There's a whole spectrum of freedom-lovers here, peppered all over the upper half of the Political Quiz.

You'd fit right in out here.  I look forward to you arrival!

Quote
I love Libertarian economic ideas, but I'm not sold on the social aspects (such as legalizing drugs... freedom to rot your brain isn't the kind of thing that stokes my patriotic fires.

It doesn't have to stoke your patriotic fires, just as the gun rights issue, one of my pets, doesn't stoke the fires of a number of my friends and acquaintences.

The basic question on the drug legalization issue is whether you believe that the government should have the power to use its coercive force to dictate to its citizens what they may and may not eat, inhale, or inject, and punish them if they make "unacceptable" choices.  Is it a crime to sprinkle Drano on your breakfast cereal?  Why not?  It's certainly an uncomfortable subject, particularly for someone in law enforcement, but I'll second the recommendation to read the LEAP materials.

I grew up in Ann Arbor, and my folks still live there.  Thanks for the news about the minwage change - incredible how stupid union-leashed politicians can be, isn't it?
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Morey on March 31, 2006, 12:38:29 pm
I would add that that libertarians are proponents of negative rights, and not postive rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_rights).  That may be a help in deciding if we are a good match for you.

I'm sorry to be the curmudgeon here, but I share your doubts that you can agree to the SoI.  We are not the chamber of commerce or a front for the NH real estate industry, and we are not here to get 20k people who agree with some liberties but eschew others.  Nearly everyone, including current residents, can fit into such a large tent.  It doesn't help us to get just anyone to move.

If you are overall happy with the Bush administration, then I would suggest that you look to the solidly red states as places where you would fit in better.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: colovion on March 31, 2006, 01:15:45 pm


I tend to agree with you on the cameras.  It's no different than a cop watching personally and many here do believe law enforcement to be a legitimate function of government.  As far as the drugs go.  Arguing for legalization (decriminalization) doesn't make you a hypocrite.  I don't think toddlers should carry around their own bag of potato chips but not wanting that to be illegal doesn't mean I endorse it.  Neither to I encourage people to play the lottery but wouldn't arrest someone for it.  So it turns out you are as libertarian as a great many in this organization.

Hmmm... interesting analogy.  I can't disagree with that line of thought, I must say.  I guess it's really just a matter of letting people be free to fail if they want to, which I've always believed is part of freedom.  Provided they aren't stealing from me to get their drugs, or coming after me while on drugs (and those two things would be illegal regardless of the motivations) then my rights aren't being violated.

Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: David Wolfe on March 31, 2006, 01:30:22 pm
Morey's a bigger player in the FSP than I am and I don't want to be seen as telling him what the FSP is about, but there is a difference between having a tent big enough to include colovion and having a tent big enough to include nearly everyone.  To argue that if we welcome someone who disagrees with libertarian orthodoxy on drugs and the war then we'll eventually be welcoming nearly everyone is almost a "slippery slope" argument which libertarians usually don't buy into.  If we want to reach 20,000 we're going to need people like colovion.  If we'd rather be pure than effective we don't.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Morey on March 31, 2006, 01:37:03 pm
After re-reading the thread, my last message was probably a little too harsh.  There is nothing wrong with prioritizing your "pet" issues over ones you feel are less important.  You sound as though you are starting to think through what you envision as the proper role of government, and after a bit more introspect, you might be able to sign in good conscience.

As others have pointed out, being 100% consistent (a "purist", if you like) is not required.

Please note that while I am an active volunteer for the group, my opinion is in no way the official position of the FSP.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: colovion on March 31, 2006, 01:39:32 pm
THe problem you are going to see with advocating the use of those cameras is twofold, firstly who is responsible for purchasing the cameras, and secondly who is going to monitor them for you. THen where does the money for these items and come from? the taxpayers?  And when the FSPers refuse to pay their taxes (as in RK & KD refusing to pay property taxes) how do you get the money? Do you go in and seize their house?  Because then sir, you have initiated the use of force for a social program.

...

The same arguments can be made for any social program currently in existence, as well as fire and police departments.


Well, if you can argue that the police department's job (in part) is to patrol public areas looking for crimes, then cameras would simply be another tool in their arsenal, a legitimate expense on their part.  Since the infrastructure of the commons would belong to the administration of the city (in that they'd be the one's ok-ing expenses for repairs, improvements and such out of the city budget), and they pay for the police protetion, they'd be responsible for it.

I don't have a problem with property taxes... it is a pretty fair way to tax people for necessary government services.  They own property, they have a stake in the administration of that area.  I'm not one of those "taxation is theft" people, it's only theft if it's for unjustified purposes IMHO.  Paying for a police force to protect you (definitely a legitimate role for the government) is fair, so payng the police budget out of property taxes is fair.

If people had their own cameras on their own property (watching their own property, of course), that wouldn't phase me either.  I do have a surveillance camera on my property, crime prevention and security are really the main thrust of my job (and the only parts I really like, it's a challenge.)  They aren't the be-all-end-all of security, but they can be very useful parts of an overall system.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: colovion on March 31, 2006, 01:46:37 pm
I grew up in Ann Arbor, and my folks still live there.  Thanks for the news about the minwage change - incredible how stupid union-leashed politicians can be, isn't it?

I'm very familiar with the Ann Arbor area, and its major university.  It never ceases to amaze how stupid politicians can be, and by extension the people who keep voting for them.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: JonM on March 31, 2006, 01:48:46 pm
Well, if you can argue that the police department's job (in part) is to patrol public areas looking for crimes, then cameras would simply be another tool in their arsenal, a legitimate expense on their part.  Since the infrastructure of the commons would belong to the administration of the city (in that they'd be the one's ok-ing expenses for repairs, improvements and such out of the city budget), and they pay for the police protetion, they'd be responsible for it.
I believe the official position as upheld in courts is that the police have no obligation to protect you from crime.  They are there to investigate a crime after it has occurred.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: colovion on March 31, 2006, 02:00:18 pm
After re-reading the thread, my last message was probably a little too harsh.  There is nothing wrong with prioritizing your "pet" issues over ones you feel are less important.  You sound as though you are starting to think through what you envision as the proper role of government, and after a bit more introspect, you might be able to sign in good conscience.

As others have pointed out, being 100% consistent (a "purist", if you like) is not required.

Please note that while I am an active volunteer for the group, my opinion is in no way the official position of the FSP.

No offense taken.  I'm more than willing to agree to disagree on some issues, provided the main thrust is getting rid of excessive government and protecting freedom.  The only person I know who will agree with me 100% politically is, well, me.  We all have our quriks, some are bigger than others.

There are things that Bush has done I do find fault with, but spreading liberty isn't one of them.  I know, that wasn't the stated reason for the war... but it is a noble goal nonetheless.  Failing to stop (or even significantly slow) government waste... much more disturbing IMHO.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Roycerson on March 31, 2006, 02:50:35 pm
I believe the official position as upheld in courts is that the police have no obligation to protect you from crime.  They are there to investigate a crime after it has occurred.

I'd like to see that data if it's available.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: JonM on March 31, 2006, 03:07:49 pm
I believe the official position as upheld in courts is that the police have no obligation to protect you from crime.  They are there to investigate a crime after it has occurred.

I'd like to see that data if it's available.
http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/CopsDontProtect.htm

SCOTUS went 7-2 that the police have no duty to protect you, and that was for someone with a restraining order against the person she wanted protection from.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Dave Mincin on March 31, 2006, 06:09:50 pm
Howdy colovion,

Count me among those welcoming you, and hopefully one day one of the folks who meets you at the border, with a handshake, smile, and hardy thank-you for joining us in NH.

Since I haven't said it lately, at least in public, thought I would give you my read on what is happening, with both the FSP, and us in NH. :)

As I see it the FSP is the bus to deliver freedom folks to NH.  First step is really believing that what we are about is really the right thing for you.  Forget all this crap about do I agree about everything, and with everyone involved? ???  Hey my friend, do you care about FREEDOM?  Do you believe Folks make better decisions than government?
Do you believe the government is out of control and stealing our FREEDOM ?  Are you willing to trust your neighbor?  Come to NH and not only work for Freedom, but also make her your home?  If you can say yes to the above, expect we will be most gratful to have you join us.

In the meantime I'm hopeful you will do all you can to spread the word about the FSP, and about our little misson to bring
Freedom back to the Foks!

Warm regards,
Dave Mincin

Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: freedomroad on March 31, 2006, 06:10:50 pm
Well, if you can argue that the police department's job (in part) is to patrol public areas looking for crimes, then cameras would simply be another tool in their arsenal, a legitimate expense on their part.  Since the infrastructure of the commons would belong to the administration of the city (in that they'd be the one's ok-ing expenses for repairs, improvements and such out of the city budget), and they pay for the police protetion, they'd be responsible for it.
I believe the official position as upheld in courts is that the police have no obligation to protect you from crime.  They are there to investigate a crime after it has occurred.

Yes, and this was always the point of police.  They were never intented to prevent crime.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: margomaps on March 31, 2006, 07:17:34 pm
I also want to make it clear that my post wasn't intended to be negative.  You seemed to be wondering whether your views -- in particular views that you already suspected would be controversial around here -- were consistent with the FSP's.  I simply stated my opinion that those particular views likely were not.

I agree with what others in this thread have stated: the FSP does not have a "party" mentality, and there are certainly a wide range of views on many important issues.  The fact that you seem to be pro-liberty on economic issues is important re: fitting in with the FSP's SOI.  You've also made a few comments about how you understand (and don't disagree with) arguments in favor of personal liberty, even on subjects you're not interested in (drugs).  That probably makes you a good candidate for this whole FSP thing.

On another note, your statement about not opposing taxes when they're justified is interesting.  Think of socialist-style welfare programs: someone in government will provide a justification for taxes to support program X.  Often the justification is weak or flawed, but so long as the right politician or a majority of the voters supports it, it's de facto justified.  The number of projects to be tax-funded is never-ending, and there will always be a politician eager to tax you to fund it.  It doesn't matter if you don't feel the tax is justified.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: David Wolfe on March 31, 2006, 07:21:59 pm
Yes, and this was always the point of police.  They were never intented to prevent crime.

Of course the knowledge that the police will investigate a crime does in fact prevent some crime.  And many departments provide a visible police presence in areas and at events where they want to prevent crime.  That is hard to square with the SCOTUS's view that the police have no obligation to prevent crime if that is really their view.  There is a lot that's hard to square with the SCOTUS's thinking, but in this case it's more likely that they only said that the police cannot be held liable for not preventing a crime.  Not that the police were never intended to prevent it.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: freedomroad on March 31, 2006, 08:38:59 pm
 There is a lot that's hard to square with the SCOTUS's thinking, but in this case it's more likely that they only said that the police cannot be held liable for not preventing a crime.  Not that the police were never intended to prevent it.

Right, that is what you would get from the SCOTUS thinking. What I was talking about was not a recent court statement, but the whole point of government police.

Another point I'd like to mention is that you can support limited taxes (like I do) and agree with the FSP SOI.  The SOI calls for a government (although you can take a smaller view) and that government has certain goals.  It is not against the SOI to want these government goals to be paid with taxes of various types.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: RalphBorsodi on April 01, 2006, 12:30:09 am
Quote
The SOI calls for a government (although you can take a smaller view) and that government has certain goals.  It is not against the SOI to want these government goals to be paid with taxes of various types.

In your opinion does the SOI's "smaller view" include no government at all?
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: freedomroad on April 01, 2006, 01:19:58 am
Quote
The SOI calls for a government (although you can take a smaller view) and that government has certain goals.  It is not against the SOI to want these government goals to be paid with taxes of various types.

In your opinion does the SOI's "smaller view" include no government at all?

It may to some people.  It says, "maximum".
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: RalphBorsodi on April 01, 2006, 02:17:17 am
Quote
The SOI calls for a government (although you can take a smaller view) and that government has certain goals.  It is not against the SOI to want these government goals to be paid with taxes of various types.

In your opinion does the SOI's "smaller view" include no government at all?

It may to some people.  It says, "maximum".

Do you think the inevitable conflict that will be created between anarchists and minarchist faction is more or less of a burden than the effect that the anarchist position is going to have on opponents to the FSP in the larger community within the state?

To put it another way - do you not think it would have made more sense to state explicitly like the SOI had previously that the sole role of government was to protect life, liberty and property making the FSP a decidely minarchist rather than anarchist project?

It would be interesting to do a scientific poll of the folks who have moved so far what percentage claim to be anarchists. My hunch is that it is disproportionate to the final tally when 20K move.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: freedomroad on April 01, 2006, 02:49:13 am
Do you think the inevitable conflict that will be created between anarchists and minarchist faction is more or less of a burden than the effect that the anarchist position is going to have on opponents to the FSP in the larger community within the state?

I think that is a loaded question.

Quote
To put it another way - do you not think it would have made more sense to state explicitly like the SOI had previously that the sole role of government was to protect life, liberty and property making the FSP a decidely minarchist rather than anarchist project?

The FSP is about recruiting small government activists to NH.  I don't see a problem with that.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Russell Kanning on April 01, 2006, 03:10:09 am
I am not excited to meet another person who is comfortable with the current US police state.
If you are a person who would arrest me for not paying taxes, then you are a tool of evil government. Quit now and save your soul.

You mentioned that you are a Christian. How did Jesus teach us to interact with each other?
How does "you shall not kill" fit in with the US liberating Iraq by killing people?

Since you are sorting these things out, I would recommend reading some stuff by Tolstoy (The Kingdom of God is Within You) and Ghandi about how to apply Christ's teachings to our current society.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: KBCraig on April 01, 2006, 04:56:56 am
Since you are sorting these things out, I would recommend reading some stuff by Tolstoy (The Kingdom of God is Within You) and Ghandi about how to apply Christ's teachings to our current society.

Tolstoy was a Christian, but I'm unaware of Gandhi's writings being included in the Apologia. ;-)

Kevin
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Russell Kanning on April 01, 2006, 07:33:07 am
He learned a lot from Tolstoy and was trying to apply truths taught by Christ to his situation.
I am trying to do the same thing.
I don't know anything about the Apologia.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: JonM on April 01, 2006, 08:54:46 am
Do you think the inevitable conflict that will be created between anarchists and minarchist faction is more or less of a burden than the effect that the anarchist position is going to have on opponents to the FSP in the larger community within the state?

To put it another way - do you not think it would have made more sense to state explicitly like the SOI had previously that the sole role of government was to protect life, liberty and property making the FSP a decidely minarchist rather than anarchist project?

It would be interesting to do a scientific poll of the folks who have moved so far what percentage claim to be anarchists. My hunch is that it is disproportionate to the final tally when 20K move.

Some people may remember Ralph as Greenbacks.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: freedom's ideologue on April 01, 2006, 09:14:14 am
Quote
NH bound makes a good point that it takes time to get used to the idea of freedom

And he makes a LOUSY point when he tries to say that the FSP is not about national issues.  I wouldn't have moved 1000 miles from my home if all this was about was electing selectment.

Take this for what its worth from a classical LIBERAL (yes, I guess that makes me automatically hated) who believes we are fighting the greatest threat of our generation:  FEDERAL FASCISM.

Caleb

Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: RalphBorsodi on April 01, 2006, 09:49:04 am
He learned a lot from Tolstoy and was trying to apply truths taught by Christ to his situation.
I am trying to do the same thing.

If you are a person who would arrest me for not paying taxes, then you are a tool of evil government.

It is too bad you don't understand Tolstoy.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: freedomroad on April 01, 2006, 11:26:04 am
I wouldn't have moved 1000 miles from my home if all this was about was electing selectment.
Caleb

Clearly, I said nothing like that.  But OK, you are right.  The FSP could be expanded to mean that we should move to NH so that we have more influence over the US gov, the UN, NATO, and the WTO.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 01, 2006, 11:34:14 am
I think it is pretty clear.  We free the state and then negotiate with the feds about the fascism we will no longer accept.
This doesn't mean, as individuals we can't form groups to protest against the feds and try to starve them, but, it is outside of the mission of the FSP.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Morey on April 01, 2006, 08:44:15 pm
And so you see, OP, we have a pretty diverse group, even within this little forum.  Don't let that scare you!  Though our styles, methods, and even end goals differ greatly, we all share a core interest of gaining more freedom.

If you come to Porcfest, you'll see that even us forum dwellers are friendly in person.  :D
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Power Penguin on April 02, 2006, 01:52:04 am
Yeah you should if you can. I would if I could, but since I'm going to be doing outreach at the LP National Convention, I'll have to wait until next year for PorcFest :'(
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Russell Kanning on April 02, 2006, 07:37:31 am
I bet porcfest is more fun. I know it has more drinking.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: freedomroad on April 02, 2006, 09:16:55 am
Yeah you should if you can. I would if I could, but since I'm going to be doing outreach at the LP National Convention, I'll have to wait until next year for PorcFest :'(

It should be no problem attending both, time wise as they are at different times.  I here ya, though, you will save several hundred by only going to one.  I was going to attend both but the Convention is too close to the 4th of July for my boss to let me go.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Ward Griffiths on April 02, 2006, 09:36:02 am
I bet porcfest is more fun. I know it has more drinking.
Russell, you've obviously never attended a political convention.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 02, 2006, 11:05:56 am
I have, although, not a national one.  Porcfest is more fun, with or without the drinking.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Ward Griffiths on April 02, 2006, 11:13:56 am
I have, although, not a national one.  Porcfest is more fun, with or without the drinking.
Without doubt more fun at Porcfest.  It was the drinking I was referring to.  The only convention I've attended that's been close to as enjoyable as Porcfest was LFScon (Libertarian Futurist Society) attached to Marcon in Columbus OH Memorial Day 2001.  More Prometheus winning SF writers in one place than any other time in history.  Oh yeah, and the drinking.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: JasonPSorens on April 02, 2006, 11:51:39 am
The LP convention in 2004 was pretty fun, but only because I was hanging out with Free Staters. ;)
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Pat K on April 02, 2006, 06:28:40 pm
 People drink at Porc Fest?  :o

How come no one told me?
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: colovion on April 03, 2006, 12:59:15 am
And so you see, OP, we have a pretty diverse group, even within this little forum.  Don't let that scare you!  Though our styles, methods, and even end goals differ greatly, we all share a core interest of gaining more freedom.

If you come to Porcfest, you'll see that even us forum dwellers are friendly in person.  :D

It'll take more than a healthy debate to scare me away!  At the very least the debate is about how little government should be, vs. how it can best solve our problems (a debate I see all to often online, unfortunately).

Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 03, 2006, 07:08:24 am
That is because most of us understand that government is often the cause of our problems and has to get out of the way for them to be solved.
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: mvpel on April 03, 2006, 07:10:22 pm
It'll take more than a healthy debate to scare me away!  At the very least the debate is about how little government should be, vs. how it can best solve our problems (a debate I see all to often online, unfortunately).

Give that man a ceeegar!

Come on out here and we'll throw a big party with plenty of New Hampshire-brewed beer and New Hampshire-distilled vodka and we'll all sit around arguing about how little government should be into the wee hours of the morning!
Title: Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
Post by: Dave Mincin on April 03, 2006, 07:25:00 pm
People drink at Porc Fest?  :o

How come no one told me?

Hey Pat!  My bad. :(  I had no idea you were a drinker? ???

Foolish me, I thought you were part of the mountain! ;D