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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #90 on: April 27, 2005, 03:37:10 pm »

The real problem with Anthony Gregory's article "Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic" is that it endorses (and uncritically, at that) the U.S. government's lying, self-serving, a-historical, a-factual, and provably false official fairy tale conspiracy theory propaganda concerning terrorism, such as the U.S. government's 9/11 conspiracy theory fairy tale.

The U.S. government has a well-documented history (i.e., modus operandi) of staging such Hegelian dialectical PsyOps attacks as the Pearl Harbor attack, the Vancouver Island shelling of 1942, Operation Northwoods (which although didn't go forward due to John F. Kennedy, all the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff signed off on it), the Gulf of Tonkin incident, the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, the 9/11 attacks, and etc., etc., etc.

Those who control the U.S. government didn't just know in advance and intentionally let the 9/11 attacks happen as a Hegelian dialectical PsyOp in order to obtain more power and control--they funded, shepherded, trained and protected the terrorists every step of the way. They didn't just intentionally let it happen: they made it happen.

The below post by me contains the November 10, 2003 article "September 11--Islamic Jihad or Another Northwoods?" by Tim Howells, Ph.D., which is a very good, short introduction to just some of the more damning mainstream major media articles and U.S. government primary documentation which proves up one side and down the other that the 9/11 attacks and the following anthrax attacks were a Hegelian dialectical PsyOp staged by the U.S. government as a pretext in order to obtain more power and control. I append my own additional endnotes at the conclusion of Dr. Howells' article, in order to add further mainstream documentation.

From: James Redford <jrredford@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.education,alt.education.alternative,alt.education.research,misc.education
Subject: The U.S. Government Staged the 9/11 Attacks
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:49:56 GMT

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.college/msg/cdb2f90b15ea3233?dmode=source

http://www.geocities.com/psyop911/tim-howells-september-11-islamic-jihad-or-another-northwoods.html

And see also the below two books concerning the U.S. government staging the 9/11 attacks:

The War on Freedom: How and Why America was Attacked, September 11th, 2001 by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed, foreword and afterword by John Leonard (Tree of Life Publications; June 2002), ISBN: 0-930852-40-0 (0930852400), 400 pages:

http://www.williambowles.info/911/warfre-book.pdf

http://www.geocities.com/psyop911/nafeez-mosaddeq-ahmed-the-war-on-freedom-warfre-book.pdf

The best analysis and documentation on the creation of modern Islamic fundamentalism of the Afghanistan variety that I found is in the beginning chapters of the above book.

The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9/11 by Prof. David Ray Griffin, foreword by Prof. Richard Falk (Olive Branch Press [an imprint of Interlink Publishing Group, Inc.]; March 2004), ISBN: 1-56656-552-9 (1566565529), 256 pages:

http://www.geocities.com/psyop911/david-ray-griffin-the-new-pearl-harbor.html

Or, to find it elswhere online, see the below Google link:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22followed+by+electrifying+revelations%22&num=100&filter=0

See also:

"50 years on, Lavon Affair still sparks public debate in Israel," Dan Baron, Jewish Telegraphic Agency, July 20, 2004:

http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?strwebhead=%26%238216%3BLavon%20Affair%26%238217%3B%20still%20riles%20Israel

Israeli Roots of Hamas:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/archives_hamas.html

Puppet On A String: Hamas Dances To Israel's Tune
By Paul Joseph Watson:

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/puppet_on_a_string.html

The Phony (Mossad) Al Qaeda Cell in Palestine:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fakealqaeda.html

FRAMING ARABS:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/framingarabs.html

Tracking the 19 Hijackers
What are they up to now?
At least 9 of them survived 9/11:

http://www.welfarestate.com/911/

http://web.archive.org/web/20021208013054/http://www.welfarestate.com/911/

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:qMk1q6w9J4oJ:www.welfarestate.com/911

WAM: Busted! Mossad Exposed
Mossad Exposed In Phony 'Palestinian Al Qaeda' Caper
By Michele Steinberg and Hussein Askary:

http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=5156

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/02/1572495.php

Nidal planned to oust Saddam 
28 August 2002: The Palestinian terrorist, Abu Nidal, was working for the Israeli intelligence agency, Mossad, for the last four years and was plotting a coup against Iraqi president Saddam Hussain at the behest of Western powers, top diplomats said.:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/news_alert_hamas3.html

http://www.intellnet.org/news/2002/08/29/11285-1.html

Hamas history tied to Israel
By Richard Sale
UPI Terrorism Correspondent From the International Desk
Published 6/18/2002:

http://www.eto.home.att.net/hamas1.html

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r

JP Editorial: The Hamas-Likud Pairing
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 21:08:04 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Michael Freund <mbf@actcom.co.il>

Dear IRIS Subscriber,
The following editorial appeared in the Jerusalem Post on August 28, 1995. It is reprinted with permission.

IRIS Staff

THE HAMAS-LIKUD PAIRING
Editorial from August 25, 1995:

http://www.io.com/~jewishwb/iris/archives/608.html

Israeli Roots of Hamas are being exposed
by  Dean Andromidas
Executive Intelligence Review (EIR), 18 January 2002
Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG),  globalresearch.ca , 12 April 2002:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/AND204A.html

Sharon War Plan Exposed:
Hamas Gang Is His Tool

by Jeffrey Steinberg
 
Executive Intelligence Review,  20 July 2001
Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG),  globalresearch.ca ,  5 April 2002:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/STE204A.html

Israel's Hamas
by George Szamuely

The New York Press Volume 15, Issue 17, April 2002
Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG),  globalresearch.ca , 23 April 2002:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/SZA204A.html

Israel's Sacred Terrorism by Livia Rokach, foreword by Noam Chomsky (AAUG Press; Third Edition: 1986):

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html

---

And let us not forget that the largest terrorist act in Palestine was and remains the bombing of the King David Hotel on July 26, 1946 by Jews dressed as Arabs. 91 people were killed and around 45 people were injured. The attack was ordered by David Ben Gurion and directed by Menachem Begin, both of whom would later become Israeli Prime Ministers. For more on that, see:

King David Hotel bombing:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030228081251/http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel

The Bombing Of The King David Hotel:

http://www.iap.org/kingdavidhotel.htm

See also:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/May03articles.html

5/18/03 Nine killed in double Jerusalem suicide bombing
http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20archives/2003%20News%20archives/May%202003%20News/18%20n/Nine%20killed%20in%20double%20Jerusalem%20suicide%20bombing.htm Police Chief Shlomo Aharonishki said the first bomber was disguised as an Orthodox Jew and that a skullcap and prayer shawl were found on him. (Interesting that nobody ever suspects that bombers who look like Arabs might be in disguise, especially since the King David Hotel was blown up by Israelis dressed as Arabs, not to mention the infamous Lavon Affair. In any event, the timing makes it obvious that the bombings were intended to derail the peace process. Now, who wanted that to happen? That's your ultimate mastermind.)

########################################

(Note: This post is continued in the next post by me below.)
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James Redford, author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised and expanded edition, December 4, 2011 (originally published December 19, 2001).

Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist (a website with information on Prof. Frank J. Tipler's Omega Point Theory and the quantum gravity Theory of Everything [TOE]).
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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #91 on: April 27, 2005, 03:37:49 pm »

(Note: This post is continued from the last post by me above.)

########################################

It was the FBI that bombed the World Trade Center in 1993:

None of this would be known today if it were not for the FBI's undercover agent Emad A. Salem taping his conversations with his FBI handlers (unbeknownst to them). Salem thought that the FBI might try to pin it on him so he took measures to protect himself. Indeed, without the FBI the '93 WTC bombing would never have happened, as it was agent Salem who built the bomb for the would-be Muslim "terrorists." Salem wanted to use fake ingredients for the "bomb" but the FBI ordered him to make a real one. When the making of the bomb was complete Salem told the FBI that they could now arrest the would-be terrorists, but the FBI told Salem that the bombing is to go forward. After agent Salem went public with his tapes in a news conference the FBI found it necessary to pay him over a million dollars just to shut him up. See the October 28, 1993 New York Times article "Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast":

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b3c830e34de.htm

And see also:

"Who Bombed The World Trade Center? FBI Bomb Builders Exposed":

http://pdr.autono.net/WhoBombedWTC.html

On the above webapage you can find the below two audio clips from one of Emad A. Salem's recorded conversations with one of his FBI handlers, FBI Special Agent John Anticev:

http://nwo.media.xs2.net/tape/emad%20salem.mp3

The above clip is an excerpt from the below longer clip:

http://nwo.media.xs2.net/tape/SalemWBAI.mp3

The above clips were also broadcasted on WBAI Radio in the city of New York.

The below transcript is from 2:57 to 4:31 min:sec from the longer clip (SalemWBAI.mp3):

FBI Special Agent John Anticev: But, uh, basically nothing has changed. I'm just telling you for my own sake that nothing, that this isn't a salary, that it's--you know. But you got paid regularly for good information. I mean the expenses were a little bit out of the ordinary and it was really questioned. Don't tell Nancy I told you this. [Nancy Floyd is another FBI Special Agent who worked with Emad A. Salem in his informant capacity.]

Emad A. Salem: Well, I have to tell her of course.

Anticev: Well then, if you have to, you have to.

Salem: Yeah, I mean because the lady was being honest and I was being honest and everything was submitted with a receipt and now it's questionable.

Anticev: It's not questionable, it's like a little out of the ordinary.

Salem: Okay. Alright. I don't think it was. If that's what you think guys, fine, but I don't think that because we was start already building the bomb which is went off in the World Trade Center. It was built by supervising supervision from the Bureau and the D.A. and we was all informed about it and we know that the bomb start to be built. By who? By your confidential informant. What a wonderful, great case!

Anticev: Well.

Salem: And then he put his head in the sand and said "Oh, no, no, that's not true, he is son of a bitch." [Deep breath.] Okay. It's built with a different way in another place and that's it.

Anticev: No, don't make any rash decisions. I'm just trying to be as honest with you as I can.

Salem: Of course, I appreciate that.

Anticev: And as far as the payments go, and everything like that, they're there. I guarantee you that they are there.

########################################

Concerning the Oklahoma City bombing, see the below links:

"PROOF there were additional explosive charges":

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/bombs.html

WhatReallyHappened.com Oklahoma City Bombing page:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/ok.html

"Bomb Damage Analysis Of Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building" by Brigadier General Benton K. Partin, retired head of U.S. Airforce Weapons Development:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010421085309/http://www.intellex.com/~rigs/page1/okc/report.htm

"Was FBI early arrival in Oklahoma City?--Hotel receipt shows top terror man showed up 9 hours before blast":

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26115

Iraqis were definitely involved in the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal building in Oklahoma City. There is quite a lot of evidence demonstrating this. We even know the names of some of those Iraqis, like Al-Hussaini Hussain, who was also working as a baggage-handler at Boston's Logan International Airport during the 9/11 attacks, which is where American Airlines Flight 11 and United Airlines Flight 175 originated from.

Al-Hussaini Hussain is the person that witnesses identify as John Doe No. 2 who was with Timothy McVeigh in dropping off the Ryder truck in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal building. He was arrested by the FBI trying to leave the U.S. and his release was ordered by Bill Clinton through the Justice Department. Found in his custody during that arrest was the blue jogging suit that witnesses described.

Al-Hussaini Hussain is former Iraqi Republican Guard, and four other former Iraqi Republican Guard members were arrested soon after the bombing of the Murrah Federal building, but their release was ordered by Bill Clinton. These former Iraqi Republican Guard members are part of the 3,500+ Iraqi military members and their family brought into the U.S. after the Gulf War by George Bush, Sr. and further continued by Bill Clinton. For more on this transfer of Iraqi military into the U.S., see the below major media news articles:

"Iraq POWs Paid to Resettle in U.S.; Lawmakers Protest" (Los Angeles Times, 8/24/93):

http://www.prisonplanet.com/news_alert_082493_iraq.html

"Resettling Iraqi POWs in U.S. Criticized; Lawmakers Urge Clinton to End 'Potentially Dangerous' Policy" (Washington Post, 8/25/93):

http://www.prisonplanet.com/news_alert_082593_iraq.html

http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/iraqlatimes1.gif

Many of the confiscated tapes of the twelve video survailance cameras that were in front of the Murrah Federal building record exactly what witnesses described: Al-Hussaini Hussain dropping off the Ryder truck with Timothy McVeigh--Al-Hussaini Hussain as the passenger and Timothy McVeigh as the driver. And this according to high-level FBI sources who have seen the tapes, as quoted by the Los Angeles Times and Oklahoma City KFOR-TV news. These video survailance tapes were confiscated by the U.S. government under the National Security Act.

For more on this evidence which I have been relating to you, I urge you to watch at least the first part (which deals with the Oklahoma City bombing) of the video documentary "911: The Road to Tyranny" by political talk radio host Alex Jones, of which can be viewed below in its entirety for free:

http://911.mazesoftware.com

http://100777.com/doc/30

http://www.c0balt.com/resources/911/download.shtml

http://infowars.com/video_clips.html (There is only the first part of the video on the Infowars website.)

And see:

"Search For The Missing Iraqis: Ask Daddy Bush And Clinton" by Wade Inganamort:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_inganamort_012803_iraqis.html

See also:

"The real story of Iraqis at OKC bombing. Not the one you think!":

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/11/1542199.php

As well, see the on-line book The Oklahoma City Bombing and The Politics of Terror:

http://www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt.htm

The above book by David Hoffman is very thoroughly referenced, and is introduced by Oklahoma State Rep. Charles Key.

########################################

(Note: This post is continued in the next post by me below.)
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James Redford, author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised and expanded edition, December 4, 2011 (originally published December 19, 2001).

Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist (a website with information on Prof. Frank J. Tipler's Omega Point Theory and the quantum gravity Theory of Everything [TOE]).
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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #92 on: April 27, 2005, 03:38:10 pm »

(Note: This post is continued from the last post by me above.)

########################################

Concerning the Pearl Harbor attack:

As just another among many, many examples of the U.S. government's use of staged Hegelian dialectical PsyOps attacks, President Franklin D. Roosevelt knew in advance and intentionally allowed (and provoked) the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. See, for example:

"The McCollum Memo: The Smoking Gun of Pearl Harbor":

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum

And that's just one among many, many smoking guns proving that the Pearl Harbor attack was an intentionally staged Hegelian dialectic by the U.S. government. For many more such smoking-gun, Freedom of Information Act-released U.S. government documents proving that the U.S. government knew exactly when Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor, as well as their efforts to provoke exactly this response, see the book Day of Deceit: The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor by Robert B. Stinnett. For more on just some of that, see:

"Do Freedom of Information Act Files Prove FDR Had Foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor?--An Interview with Robert B. Stinnett" by Douglas Cirignano, The Independent Institute, March 11, 2002:

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/020311Cirignano.html

And for a list of dozens of hardcore smoking guns proving the Pearl Harbor attack was an intentionally staged Hegelian dialectic by the U.S. government, see:

"Pearl Harbor: Mother of All Conspiracies" by Mark Emerson Willey:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

########################################

Terrorism is the health of the state, which is why so many governments throughout history have manufactured terrorism in which to serve as a pretext in order to usurp ever more power and control.

Below is documentation on Vladimir "Mr. Hexogen" Putin* and the 9/99 Russian apartment building bombings:

The September 1999 Russian apartment building terror-bombing campain used Hexogen (i.e., Cyclonite; RDX) as the explosive and was blamed on Chechen terrorists despite there being not the slightest shred of evidence that Chechens were behind it, and it later turned out that the bombings were done by the Russian government itself (i.e., under former KGB spy and FSB head, and then Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin) in order to get the Russian people behind another war against Chechnya (oh, how familiar it all sounds!)--indeed, the Russian government (i.e., the FSB, the present-day KGB) was actually caught red-handed by local police and citizens in the city of Ryazan planting live explosives (i.e., Hexogen) with live detonators in an apartment building!

The below article by David Satter, published by The Hudson Institute, is probably the best overall article concerning much of the evidence that the 9/99 Russian terrorist bombings were done by the Russian government. The National Review article is simply based upon The Hudson Institute article, but without the very important and informative endnotes (and so I recommend that you read The Hudson Institute article).

"The Shadow of Ryazan: Who Was Behind the Strange Russian Apartment Bombings in September 1999?" by David Satter, The Hudson Institute, April 19, 2002:

http://www.sais-jhu.edu/programs/res/papers/Satter%20edited%20final.pdf

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=m13invc66fgmeehorn7n229t63iii89145%404ax.com

"The Shadow of Ryazan--Is Putin's government legitimate?" by David Satter, National Review, April 30, 2002:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-satter043002.asp

The below website, Terror-99, deals with the Russian government's involvement in the 9/99 Russian terrorist bombings, and has a huge amount of mainstream major-media news-articles demonstrating that the Russian government was behind the bombings:

http://eng.terror99.ru

For an additional amount of vital evidence not covered in the David Satter article, see the below two articles:

"Bali Halloween" by Israel Shamir:

http://web.archive.org/web/20021201085508/http://www.israelshamir.net/english/bali.shtml

"Fear of Doing the Boss a Disservice," Moscow Times, April 11, 2002, pg. 8:

http://eng.terror99.ru/publications/041.htm


David Satter has also written more on this matter in the below book by him:

Darkness at Dawn: The Rise of the Russian Criminal State (Yale University Press; May 2003) ISBN: 0-300-09892-8, or 0300098928:

http://yalepress.yale.edu/YupBooks/viewbook.asp?isbn=0300098928

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300098928

---

Note:

* "'Gospodin Geksogen' ('Mr. Hexogen')" by Dr. Alexandr Nemets and Dr. Thomas Torda, July 19, 2002
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/18/213136.shtml

and:

"'Mr. Hexogen' (Continued)" by Dr. Alexandr Nemets and Dr. Thomas Torda, July 23, 2002
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/22/160751.shtml
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James Redford, author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), revised and expanded edition, December 4, 2011 (originally published December 19, 2001).

Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist (a website with information on Prof. Frank J. Tipler's Omega Point Theory and the quantum gravity Theory of Everything [TOE]).
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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #93 on: April 27, 2005, 06:28:33 pm »

Reno was not in command, officially or unofficially, of the ATF. The ATF is under the Treasury Department, not the Justice Department. And the ATF investigation began in the summer of 1992, under Bush. To blame Reno for the ATF's actions, before she was appointed to head the Justice Department, is absurd.

Is it?  I’d say that the notion that all dealings by Federal officials are straightforward and honest is the absurd one.  If Reno wasn’t in contact with those involved, that would be the surprising situation.

Yes, and it is true that firearms were involved in getting the warrant. But methamphetamine was also an excuse. The primary purpose of the ATF's raid was not simply a Clintonian drive to ban guns, but this was indeed part of it.

Care to substantiate that?  The affidavit I read lists a lot about firearms.  Not so much about methamphetamine.

On law enforcement activities, Bush I was quite a micromanager. He still reads the CIA reports, which is every fromer president's privilege, but he is unique in practicing it.

How can you say that Bush didn't endorse the atrocity?

Let me ask this in a different way: have you met the people involved?

You're actually defending the "War on Terror," including the murderous and unconstitutional war on Iraq?

Am I?  I don’t recall doing so.  Please quote where I did so, if you think I did.

Pointing out a blatantly obvious error is a neutral act.  It serves both sides, in that debate.  And, if you’re going to use yourself as a reference, you’d better expect that your credibility will be called into question when you make such glaring errors.  Saddam couldn’t have been a threat if he had weapons of mass destruction, because we would magically know that they came from him, and retaliate?  No matter what someone’s opinion on the war is, that statement is patently absurd...

I can't believe what I'm reading. Here you are, defending the worst administration since LBJ or perhaps Harry Truman, and saying that my claims on Bush's spending are "wholly inaccurate"? When will people wake up??

I don’t know.  When will they?  They seem awfully sleepy, to be taken in by such obvious faulty logic, as you’ve been presenting.

As a percentage increase, adjusted for inflation, Bush is a far bigger spender than Clinton was. Also see this. Or this.

Ever since Nixon, Republicans have been the bigger spenders, just as they were before Woodrow Wilson.

Nice try, but I don’t see an answer to my question, there.  Just more intellectually-dishonest number-bending.  Change in spending, adjusted for inflation.  Convenient to do, since it allows you to ignore the change in the domestic product, huh?  And more of the same.

It might fool some of the people, but anyone who passed high school math should be able to see through that.  And anyone who reached that achievement, but fails to see through it... well, that’s why it’s important to keep up on things, and not just ignore them because you are no longer being quizzed weekly.  It doesn’t exactly take a professional mathematician to see through that sort of trickery.

The best book I know on the Clinton administration is Jim Bovard's Feeling Your Pain: The Explosion and Abuse of Government Power in the Clinton-Gore Years. The best I know on Bush's are Bovard's Terrorism and Tyranny and The Bush Betrayal. Bush II is far worse than Clinton was, and Clinton was indeed horrible.

And yet, horrible as he was, you can’t even manage to substantiate that?  Amazing.  It’s almost like you’re just supporting a cookie-cutter position, without considering the facts.  You wouldn’t be doing that, would you?

Perhaps the Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie, shouldn't have encouraged Saddam to invade Kuwait after he complained about Kuwait's stealing of Iraq's oil through slant-drilling. Or perhaps the U.S. shouldn't have supported Saddam during his worst war crimes in the 1980s. But yes, America had a chance to restore its noninterventionist foreign policy—the greatest of all, and most important of all, the founding principles America inherited from its Founding Fathers—after the Cold War. It had a chance to be at peace with the world.

You imagine that, if the US had chosen not to act when Saddam invaded Kuwait, that single non-act would erase decades of precedent?  You imagine that the Federal government would just say, “hey, we actually decided that power doesn’t corrupt, and we don’t like having it anyway, so we’re just going to reverse our power-grab, without any rhyme or reason,” and things like that?  Come on now.  No matter what action was taken on that particular incident, the Federal government was not about to reverse its overall policy.

Iraq is Waco every day. If you believe the State's lies about the wars on Iraq, and yet claim to see through its lies regarding Waco and Ruby Ridge, I don't know what to say. But the current war is the worst thing the U.S. government has done in a long, long time. And the guy responsible is named Bush.

I don’t give a hoot what the State wants to say about Iraq.  I know numerous people who have been there, both pre- and post-invasion.  Some military, some civilian (contractors, journalists, and numerous anti-war activists).  The situation is no where near what the Media portray.  It is no where near what the government portrays, either.  And it is certainly nowhere near what you are attempting to portray.

Of course the terrorist attack on 9/11 wasn't a response to Bush II. Both Bush I and Clinton are to blame for the horrible foreign policy that made such an attack inevitable.

Primarily Clinton, but 41 had some input, as well.  More depressingly, Clinton has made a future war with China almost inevitable.  And the death toll there will make all this look like a Sunday picnic.

Well put Joe

Thanks.  I try to inject some reason, when I can.

Joe
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We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..
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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #94 on: April 27, 2005, 07:10:39 pm »

Quote
Quote
As a percentage increase, adjusted for inflation, Bush is a far bigger spender than Clinton was. Also see this. Or this.

Ever since Nixon, Republicans have been the bigger spenders, just as they were before Woodrow Wilson.

Nice try, but I don’t see an answer to my question, there.  Just more intellectually-dishonest number-bending.  Change in spending, adjusted for inflation.  Convenient to do, since it allows you to ignore the change in the domestic product, huh?  And more of the same.

Domestic product is different than government spending, which was what he was referencing.  Comparing government spending as a percent of domestic product would be a sad way to view things, implying that if the economy grows, government is entitled to more of it.  You also need to adjust spending for inflation or it's comparing apples to oranges.  X dollars spent now is less than X dollars spent 10 years ago.  To compare spending levels you need to adjust for the real buying power of the dollars being spent.  Are inflation estimates off?  Probably, but that's still not a reason to try not to take inflation into consideration.

Quote
Quote
Iraq is Waco every day. If you believe the State's lies about the wars on Iraq, and yet claim to see through its lies regarding Waco and Ruby Ridge, I don't know what to say. But the current war is the worst thing the U.S. government has done in a long, long time. And the guy responsible is named Bush.

I don’t give a hoot what the State wants to say about Iraq.  I know numerous people who have been there, both pre- and post-invasion.  Some military, some civilian (contractors, journalists, and numerous anti-war activists).  The situation is no where near what the Media portray.  It is no where near what the government portrays, either.  And it is certainly nowhere near what you are attempting to portray.

I happened to know a man from Afghanistan who went back there to visit long after the war was technically over too.  His claim was that things were worse there and that previously there was little crime and people felt safe to walk the streets whereas now people are more fearful of gangs and criminals and Afghanistan was something that we already fixed wasn't it?  I'd prefer to have a foreign policy that just admits that we went to take out Saddam or terrorist camps and does the job and gets out, not a foreign policy that takes it upon the U.S. to rule over otherwise uninvolved people.
Why did we target Saddam, because he represented a government there.  Why did we target the Taliban instead of terrorists and Bin Laden?  Because they represented the government there.  We weren't after terrorists.  We were there to replace governments and occupy those countries.  Other explanations don't make the pieces fit together.  Of course these wars would have never have been approved by Congress if such had been stated up front.  I specifically remember people denying that any form of occupation would result from the War on Terror (can't say I remember Bush ever claiming that though but the assumptions were that we were there to track down 9/11 perpetrators not install new governments and adopt new nations as our responsibility and the accompanying inevitable backlash either).
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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #95 on: April 27, 2005, 07:22:43 pm »

Concerning MaineShark's above comments on Saddam and Iraq:

Saddam had been in bed with the U.S. government for quite some time--ever since Saddam was a CIA assassin in Iraq during the 1950s. The U.S. government groomed him for his position as the leader of Iraq (in the U.S.-supported-and-funded Ba'ath party), as he showed good leadership skills and an ability to work closely with the U.S. government during his period as an assassin for the Ba'ath party. In one of his assassination assignments Saddam was shot in the leg--this occured during Saddam's attempted assassination of Iraqi Prime Minister Abdul Karim Qassim in 1959 (the Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam gives a few details of this incident).

The Ba'athists finally came into power in a bloody U.S.-funded coup in 1963. As the BBC recounts:

**
The coup that brought the Ba'ath Party to power in 1963 was celebrated by the United States.

The CIA had a hand in it. They had funded the Ba'ath Party--of which Saddam Hussein was a young member--when it was in opposition.

US diplomat James Akins served in the Baghdad Embassy at the time.

"I knew all the Ba'ath Party leaders and I liked them," he told me.

"The CIA were definitely involved in that coup. We saw the rise of the Ba'athists as a way of replacing a pro-Soviet government with a pro-American one and you don't get that chance very often.

"Sure, some people were rounded up and shot but these were mostly communists so that didn't bother us".

("Saddam's parallel universe," Allan Little, BBC, January, 2003 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2694885.stm )
**

Saddam had always been the U.S. government's boy, especially during the Iran-Iraq war. So at that point it was only natural that he took April Glaspie at her word.

A week before the August 2, 1990 invasion of Kuwait by Iraq, Saddam Hussein met with April Glaspie, then America's ambassador to Iraq. It was the last high-level contact between the two countries before Iraq went to war. From a translation of a transcript of the meeting, released that September:

"We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts," the transcript reports Glaspie saying, "such as your disagreement with Kuwait. Secretary [of State James] Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction ... that Kuwait is not associated with America."

For more on that, please see the below articles:

------

Pearl Harbor in Reverse

Politics & Prose by Jack Beatty

The Atlantic Monthly:

http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/polipro/pp2002-09-25.htm

-------

Glaspie told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee at an open hearing that the Iraqi transcript of the meeting, which depicts her as acting in a fawning manner toward Saddam Hussein, and as appearing to indicate that the United States did not care how Iraq settled its border dispute with Kuwait, was doctored. But Senate staffers say that the Iraqi transcript and her own cable of the event "track almost perfectly." Glaspie, they and other observers conclude, was the ultimate staff person--obsessed with the diplomatic process to the point where she couldn't accept that sometimes it is better for the process to collapse than for it to continue.

The Atlantic Monthly:

http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/flashbks/saudiara/kaplan.htm

--------

[...] based on what U.S. ambassador April Glaspie had told him a week earlier, when she said, "We have no opinions on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait."

Angry journalists confronted Glaspie, clutching copies of the transcript of her session with Saddam, accusing her of giving him carte blanche to take over Kuwait. At one of these sessions a rattled Glaspie replied, "I didn't think . . . the Iraqis were going to take all of Kuwait."

Glaspie soon was removed from her post.

--CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) News:

http://cbc.ca/news/indepth/background/gulf_war.html

-----------

The below San Francisco Bay Guardian article is a shorter version of an article by Murray Waas that appeared in the Village Voice on January 22, 1991:

Who lost Kuwait?
When Saddam Hussein was obviously preparing to invade Kuwait, why did the U.S. send signals that it would not interfere?
By Murray Waas
January 30, 1991

http://www.sfbg.com/gulfwar/013091.html

########################################

First the rhetoric about the second invasion of Iraq was because Iraq was supposed to have been involved in the 9/11 attacks, but absolutely no evidence of that could be produced so that line was dropped. Then it was because Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, but no such weapons have been found, so that line has been dropped. Now it's about "liberating" the Iraqi people--how absolutely selfless and thoughtful Bush & Co. are to spend billions of U.S. tax-payers' money and sacrifice hundreds of U.S. soldiers' lives in the effort to free the Iraqi people by taking their personal firearms away. I suppose the next thing Bush & Co. are going to do is sell all their worldly possessions, donate the proceeds to charity and join a monastary.

But anyone parrotting the "liberation" line is either a truly ignorant person or a lying sycophant--the same goes with the other lines, as well. This war has not the slightest thing in the world to do with "liberating" the Iraqi people--other than liberating them from their oil reserves and strategic military real-estate. We have this Presidential administration's own official statements regarding their intent to invade Iraq made almost exactly one year before the 9/11 attacks, saying in their official policy report that they would still invade Iraq even if Saddam and his regime no longer existed. So this invasion has not the slightest thing in the world to do with Saddam or whatever political system was in operation in that country--the U.S. was going to invade Iraq no matter what.

Below are particularly relevant excerpts from the document "Rebuilding America's Defenses--Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century: A Report of The Project for the New American Century," September 2000 ( http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf ):

Page 14 (or 26 in the PDF browser):

"While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

Page 17 (or 29 in the PDF browser):

"From an American perspective, the value of such bases would endure even should Saddam pass from the scene."

Also:

Page 51 (or 63 in the PDF browser):

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event--like a new Pearl Harbor."

And they got their "new Pearl Harbor" twelve months later. How very fortunate for them and their globe-dominating "Project."

Below are the June 3, 1997 signers of the Project for the New American Century's Statement of Principles ( http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm ):

Elliott Abrams
Gary Bauer
William J. Bennett
Jeb Bush
Dick Cheney
Eliot A. Cohen
Midge Decter
Paula Dobriansky
Steve Forbes
Aaron Friedberg
Francis Fukuyama
Frank Gaffney
Fred C. Ikle
Donald Kagan
Zalmay Khalilzad
I. Lewis Libby
Norman Podhoretz
Dan Quayle
Peter W. Rodman
Stephen P. Rosen
Henry S. Rowen
Donald Rumsfeld
Vin Weber
George Weigel
Paul Wolfowitz


See also:

"U.S. Harbored Terrorists to Bolster Its Case," Matt Bivens, Moscow Times, March 15, 2004, Page 8 http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/03/15/007.html

"Secret Bechtel Documents Reveal: Yes, It Is About Oil," David Lindorff, CounterPunch, April 9, 2003 http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff04092003.html

"Crude Vision: How Oil Interests Obscured US Government Focus On Chemical Weapons Use by Saddam Hussein," Jim Vallette, Steve Kretzmann and Daphne Wysham, Sustainable Energy and Economy Network/Institute for Policy Studies, 2nd edition: August 13, 2002 http://www.ips-dc.org/crudevision
http://www.seen.org/pages/reports/crude.shtml

########################################

Saddam had always been the U.S. government's boy. All the way from his youth in the Ba'ath party, through the Iran-Iraq war, and even all the way up to his invasion of Kuwait when U.S. Ambassador to Iraq April Glaspie in effect gave Saddam the official U.S. government green-light to invade Kuwai, which she emphasized came directly from Secretary of State James Baker. So the U.S. government played Saddam like a fiddle--they created the Saddam we know today by putting him in power, and then set him up to take a fall so that the U.S. government could have a pretext to invade Iraq in order to set up military bases in Iraq so as to serve as a platform for invading the rest of the Arab world (as outlined in the PNAC document). Saddam was a sucker for trusting the U.S. government.

So the U.S. government loves to cite how ruthless and bloody Saddam is, yet in doing so conveniently fails to mention that Saddam qua dictator of Iraq is entirely a creation of the U.S. government. The U.S. government had always supported Saddam, until Saddam no longer figured into the U.S. government's plans for Iraq (as Saddam no doubt would have had major problems with the concept of U.S. military bases on Iraq soil, not to mention that the U.S. government wouldn't have had a pretext to establish such bases without first having set Saddam up to take a fall).

So in playing Saddam like a fiddle the U.S. government so also played the common masses of the world like a fiddle. That is to say, it's all a scam.
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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #96 on: April 27, 2005, 07:41:22 pm »

Quote
We have this Presidential administration's own official statements regarding their intent to invade Iraq made almost exactly one year before the 9/11 attacks, saying in their official policy report that they would still invade Iraq even if Saddam and his regime no longer existed.

I remember voting for Bush Jr. in 2000 (at least I tried to vote for him but I must have messed up on voter registered) even though I'd heard personally from multiple people warning that he would start a war in Iraq if he became president.  Either he's meant well and run into the worst string of luck trying to avoid the situation there or it was intentional all along.  I've given up on trying to believe the best.  Fool me once ...
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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #97 on: April 27, 2005, 07:56:46 pm »

Domestic product is different than government spending, which was what he was referencing.  Comparing government spending as a percent of domestic product would be a sad way to view things, implying that if the economy grows, government is entitled to more of it.

Comparing based on accurate numbers does not imply any legal, moral, or philosophical endorsement of the actions.  That’s like saying that using HIV infection rates instead of the absolute number is an endorsement of people contracting HIV.  It simply isn’t.

You also need to adjust spending for inflation or it's comparing apples to oranges.  X dollars spent now is less than X dollars spent 10 years ago.  To compare spending levels you need to adjust for the real buying power of the dollars being spent.  Are inflation estimates off?  Probably, but that's still not a reason to try not to take inflation into consideration.

As I stated, it needs to be adjusted for both, not just one or the other.  People often use whichever is convenient, to bolster their own views.  The same article will quite often use one in one graph, and the other in another graph.  Whichever happens to warp the numbers in the manner that the author finds pleasing, for that particular dataset.  It’s intellectually dishonest to choose the data that fit your premise, rather than presenting accurate data, and modifying your premise if the data don’t support it.

I happened to know a man from Afghanistan who went back there to visit long after the war was technically over too.  His claim was that things were worse there and that previously there was little crime and people felt safe to walk the streets whereas now people are more fearful of gangs and criminals and Afghanistan was something that we already fixed wasn't it?

Totalitarian dictatorships tend to be great for controlling street crime.  They can also be quite effective at curing poverty and disease, if they choose to be.  Doesn’t mean that the ends justify the means, by any stretch of the imagination.

“As a rule, dictatorships guarantee safe streets and terror of the doorbell. In democracy the streets may be unsafe after dark, but the most likely visitor in the early hours will be the milkman.” (sorry, I can’t recall the author)

Concerning MaineShark's above comments on Saddam and Iraq:

Sorry, but I can’t find anything in there that addressed any of my points.  Care to point out anything in your post that addresses any point that I made?

Joe
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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #98 on: April 27, 2005, 08:18:04 pm »

Quote
We have this Presidential administration's own official statements regarding their intent to invade Iraq made almost exactly one year before the 9/11 attacks, saying in their official policy report that they would still invade Iraq even if Saddam and his regime no longer existed.

I remember voting for Bush Jr. in 2000 (at least I tried to vote for him but I must have messed up on voter registered) even though I'd heard personally from multiple people warning that he would start a war in Iraq if he became president.  Either he's meant well and run into the worst string of luck trying to avoid the situation there or it was intentional all along.  I've given up on trying to believe the best.  Fool me once ...

Come on now, that's why I provide the hardcore documentation, so that one doesn't have to guess as to what this Presidential administration's intent was all along on this matter. Read their own PNAC document--even before Bush, Jr. got into office they had already planned to invade Iraq no matter what, even if Saddam was no longer in power.

Not to mention how they talk about in their own PNAC document of how wonderful it would be if a massive 9/11-type of attack happened ("a new Pearl Harbor," to use their phrase)--how that would really help speed-up their globe-dominating agenda.

It's not called the "Bush crime family" for nothing--such as with grandaddy Prescott Bush illegally funding and supplying the Nazis, even during wartime against the Trading With the Enemy Act.

And the whole Clinton vs. the Bushes debate is utlimately vacuous, as they both represent the same globalist elite. The Clintons and the Bushes are long-time family-friends, going at least all the way back to the U.S. government's drug-running operation in Mena, Arkansas.

For more on this, see:

"The Activities at Mena":

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/mena.html

"Dem Mena Bones & Kerry":

http://www.libertythink.com/2004/01/dem-mena-bones-kerry.html

"Double dealing in war on drugs," Gordon Brewer, The Scotsman, June 20, 2004:

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/thereview.cfm?id=698842004

From: Orlin Grabbe <kalliste@delphi.com>
Subject: Mena, Arkansas: Tom Valentine interviews Lt. Com. Alex Martin
Date: 1995/10/23
Message-ID: <BFPFATv.kalliste@delphi.com>
organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
newsgroups: sci.econ

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.econ/msg/b647aeecdcc40e17?dmode=source

Bill Clinton was a lousy and corrupt Governor of a notoriously corrupt State who hardly anyone outside of Arkansas had ever heard of, and then he gets promoted big-time into the Presidency. He certainly didn't achieve the Office of the Presidency based upon his public-performance as the Governor of Arkansas.

So how did he achieve the Office of the Presidency? Quite simply, he was groomed for the position of the Presidency by the Bilderberg group.

The Bilderberg group of European royalty and international central bankers publicly brags that they groomed Bill Clinton and Tony Blair for the U.S. Presidency and British Prime Ministery, respectively, in Reuters:

"Secretive Bilderberg group to meet in Sweden," Peter Starck, Reuters, May 23, 2001:

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/reuters_bilderberg.html

So Bill Clinton's days of drug-running with the Bush clan certainly paid off well for him.

For more information on the Bilderberg group, see the below archive:

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/archive_bilderberg

See also:

"Elite power brokers' secret talks," 15 May, 2003:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3031717.stm

"World government in action," May 16, 2003:

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32606

"The masters of the universe," May 22, 2003:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EE22Ak03.html

And as the below BBC Radio report reveals, the European Union and the euro European Union single-currency were both planned since the first Bilderberg meeting in 1954:

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/archive_bilderberg

BBC Bilderberg Report: European Union, Single Currency Planned Since 50's

BBC uncovered incredible archived Bilderberg documents which confirmed that both the EU and the Euro were the brainchild of Bilderberg. ...

"Club Class," Simon Cox, BBC, July 3, 2003:

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/bbc_radio_4_bilderberg.mp3

-----

See also:

"Clinton finds his surrogate family--Growing friendship with Bush clan pays political dividend to all," Peter S. Canellos, Boston Globe, April 12, 2005:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/04/12/clinton_finds_his_surrogate_family/
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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #99 on: April 27, 2005, 08:28:55 pm »


...

Concerning MaineShark's above comments on Saddam and Iraq:

Sorry, but I can’t find anything in there that addressed any of my points.  Care to point out anything in your post that addresses any point that I made?

Joe

Sure, I do care to do so. Your post which I replied to in the above seemed to imply that the invasion of Iraq by the U.S. government (either of them) was something less than a total scam.

If instead you do agree that both invasions of Iraq by the U.S. government were total power-grab scams on the part of those who control the U.S. government, then my reply to your post would simply be adding further confirmation and documentation to that effect.
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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #100 on: April 27, 2005, 08:34:22 pm »

Sure, I do care to do so. Your post which I replied to in the above seemed to imply that the invasion of Iraq by the U.S. government (either of them) was something less than a total scam.

If instead you do agree that both invasions of Iraq by the U.S. government were total power-grab scams on the part of those who control the U.S. government, then my reply to your post would simply be adding further confirmation and documentation to that effect.

I didn't state, or imply, either point of view.

If I had to choose, I'd take the first option, because I don't believe it was a total scam.  That's a fairly absolute statement to make, and is pretty much indefensible, as I'm sure someone could find some aspect, no matter how trivial, that was not a scam, so your statement would be proven false.  But refusal to accept some particular extreme position is not equivalent to acceptance of the other extreme. (just nipping that one in the bud, before you say, "oh, so you support it."  I have gone to great lengths to avoid making a statement on that issue, here, as I don't think it is pertinent to the discussion)

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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #101 on: April 27, 2005, 09:10:04 pm »

Sure, I do care to do so. Your post which I replied to in the above seemed to imply that the invasion of Iraq by the U.S. government (either of them) was something less than a total scam.

If instead you do agree that both invasions of Iraq by the U.S. government were total power-grab scams on the part of those who control the U.S. government, then my reply to your post would simply be adding further confirmation and documentation to that effect.

I didn't state, or imply, either point of view.

If I had to choose, I'd take the first option, because I don't believe it was a total scam.  That's a fairly absolute statement to make, and is pretty much indefensible, as I'm sure someone could find some aspect, no matter how trivial, that was not a scam, so your statement would be proven false.  But refusal to accept some particular extreme position is not equivalent to acceptance of the other extreme. (just nipping that one in the bud, before you say, "oh, so you support it."  I have gone to great lengths to avoid making a statement on that issue, here, as I don't think it is pertinent to the discussion)

Joe

It's easy to correctly say that these invasions are total scams, since the whole reason for them was the expansion of power, ultimately leading up to the globalists' self-termed New World Order. Any publicly-expressed concerns on the globalists' part which supposedly are in the public's interest are merely pretexts used in furtherance of this goal.

And "pertinent to the discussion"? It's pertinent to life. Additionally, I would say that it is relevant to the topic of this thread.
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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #102 on: April 27, 2005, 09:34:09 pm »

Quote
It's easy to correctly say that these invasions are total scams, since the whole reason for them was the expansion of power, ultimately leading up to the globalists' self-termed New World Order. Any publicly-expressed concerns on the globalists' part which supposedly are in the public's interest are merely pretexts used in furtherance of this goal.

You can go down the list of wars or expansions of federal power and it always starts with stating there's a threat.  Then people are suppose to give up their liberties, or are forced to (this is stated as a temporary inconvience to deal with the problem).  The problem is typically never resolved adequately and the temporary inconveniences become new federal powers.  I think part of the reason why there was no provision for a direct method for people to reign in the federal government was because it was never envisioned as being something that affected individuals to any large extent.  Most all laws that directly affected individuals should have remained independently controlled by states with the federal government only involved in interstate disputes or foreign interactions.  Adding such a provision might cause more problems though as it could create a system even more resembling of a single centralized democracy at the mercy of media, Gallop polls and current popular sentiment.
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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #103 on: April 28, 2005, 11:51:19 am »

Quote
It's easy to correctly say that these invasions are total scams, since the whole reason for them was the expansion of power, ultimately leading up to the globalists' self-termed New World Order. Any publicly-expressed concerns on the globalists' part which supposedly are in the public's interest are merely pretexts used in furtherance of this goal.

You can go down the list of wars or expansions of federal power and it always starts with stating there's a threat.  Then people are suppose to give up their liberties, or are forced to (this is stated as a temporary inconvience to deal with the problem).  The problem is typically never resolved adequately and the temporary inconveniences become new federal powers.  I think part of the reason why there was no provision for a direct method for people to reign in the federal government was because it was never envisioned as being something that affected individuals to any large extent.  Most all laws that directly affected individuals should have remained independently controlled by states with the federal government only involved in interstate disputes or foreign interactions.  Adding such a provision might cause more problems though as it could create a system even more resembling of a single centralized democracy at the mercy of media, Gallop polls and current popular sentiment.

Actually, there WAS a method for the people to reign in the federal government-- and still is: state nullfication. The "people" you speak of, refers to the citizens of the individual states, not the Union collective.
However people believe that this ended with the Civil War; therein lies the problem, since that "war" made no new declarations of established, but was simply based on a lie concerning the original ones.
As such, those original declarations are legally still valid, and the people must learn that, if there is to be any hope; prior mistakes and misunderstandings, are no excuse for future repetition of them. As such, this prior misperception must be corrected, and the individual states must resume their power of final oversight of the federal government, by formally nullifying those federal laws which they see as unfit-- or ALL of them, via secession.
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Re: Waco, Oklahoma City, and the Post-9/11 Left-Right Dynamic
« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2005, 04:05:55 pm »

It's easy to correctly say that these invasions are total scams, since the whole reason for them was the expansion of power, ultimately leading up to the globalists' self-termed New World Order. Any publicly-expressed concerns on the globalists' part which supposedly are in the public's interest are merely pretexts used in furtherance of this goal.

You're saying that there was not a single aspect of either invasion that wasn't utterly, and completely a scam?  Not one?

And "pertinent to the discussion"? It's pertinent to life. Additionally, I would say that it is relevant to the topic of this thread.

My personal opinion is pertinent to the discussion?  Hardly.  Facts are pertinent.  Opinions are not.  Someone can hold any foolish opinion he likes, and if he states something that is a true and verifiable fact, then it's a true and verifiable fact.  That's the nice thing about facts: the source doesn't matter, because they can be verified independantly.

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..
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