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Author Topic: Percent of Federal, State, and Private Land  (Read 10790 times)
mtPete
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Re:Percent of Federal, State, and Private Land
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2002, 01:57:53 am »

Don't discount the federal land as lost to us. There is a huge movement afoot in the western rancher communitee to resist the environmentalists and the federal beuracracy. Do some internet searching on Klamath Basin, Elko Nevada, or the Jarbridge bucket brigade.

Also, one might want to do a little more research on that map. I have seen other maps and I don't know that that map is completely accurate, at least in respect to Eastern Montana. Though it may be right.
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Mark
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Re:Percent of Federal, State, and Private Land
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2002, 12:40:02 pm »



Call, I didn't catch how to get to that doc file. Is it something you could just post in this thread? Or is it too long?



http://www.micro-mania.net/maniac/Nye,Nevada.doc   - you should get a download prompt now.




A question - anybody know if Indian lands are included in government owned figures? I know the Fed has jurisdiction on Indian land. also, I believe the right of purchase of Indian land by US citizens is included in many treaties, atleast up here in NY.
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Re:Percent of Federal, State, and Private Land
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2002, 12:51:35 pm »

http://www.stanley2002.org/land.htm


Stanley's new homesteading thing. I've seen alot of people pooh-pooh this idea. I have no idea why though. there is NO shortage of land or resources in the US (actual land use is in single digits - "urban sprawl" myths aside) yet we are forced into scarcity economics and politics by anti-humanist environmentalist, land speculators and their guv'ment whores.


A strong "Liberty Ark" group of FSPers with skills and $$$ that could build a road and utility services (that's why most individuals don't buy cheap, remote land - lack economy of scale and the broad range of skills) could infuse a remote, underdeveloped area with a Gold Rush type economic boom.
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JasonPSorens
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Re:Percent of Federal, State, and Private Land
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2002, 12:53:58 pm »


A question - anybody know if Indian lands are included in government owned figures?

No, they aren't.  However, in most states tribal lands are a negligible percentage of the total (except Arizona & New Mexico).  This is according to the site linked from the State Data page (look for "state by state government land ownership").
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism
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Re:Percent of Federal, State, and Private Land
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2002, 01:24:10 pm »

ok, thanks Jason.




Zxcv, you're gonna have to cut'n'paste that url. the board funks it up. same prompt should pop-up though.
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mtPete
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Re:Percent of Federal, State, and Private Land
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2002, 08:43:18 pm »

Indian reservations is an issue that should be looked into. There are a lot of politics surrounding that issue: jurrisdiction, who owns the land, independence movements, state-tribe relations, economics, etc. I don't know how much they might affect the choosing of a state, but they sure could complicate our relations with the locals. For instance in SD there is much hostility between the two groups (as a result of the uprising in the '70s), but it is practically a non issue in MT most of the time.
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Kelton
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Re:Percent of Federal, State, and Private Land
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2002, 03:03:47 am »

I just unfolded my National Geographic Society map entitled, Federal Lands In the Fifty States Washington D.C., 1996
First, let me say that Delaware is virtually free of having land under federal domain. ---No other state even comes close to Delaware for lack of areas marked by federal use according to this map by the National Geographic Society Cartographic Division.
A quick glance of this map (I do not know if this map is available online) reveals that most of the entire West is colored with ownership by various federal departments and agencies, the east much less so, and Delaware having only two parcels "too small to distinguish at the scale of this map" under U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and a third dot near the city of Dover denoting a national estuarine research reserve on state land but under control of the Department of Commerce.
 Why is this important?
Taboo subjects such as secession aside, the subject of federal ownership of land within a state is an important consideration, despite assertions to the contrary.

1. The feds have a large latitude of Constitutionally-mandated power to control federal land and many regulations concerning federal land have tended to also affect any private property adjacent, or otherwise construed as connected to federal land.
2. The amount of land available for private ownership within a state for is physically reduced and even distorted by public lands within that state.  Though a larger state with much federal land may have more land overall than a smaller state with less, such public lands may isolate growth or tend to cause localized price distortions, such as the case with extreme prices for private land in Jackson Hole, WY.  It also tends to isolate communities by limiting transportation opportunities.
3. States with considerable amounts of public lands also have special interest groups that are politically mobilized to maintain or enlarge those lands by the government for the uses of those lands that politically motivate them.  On the other hand, lands that have been under private use for centuries tend to only arouse passions with their respective current owners and stewards.  
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Re:Percent of Federal, State, and Private Land
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2002, 08:03:52 pm »

Quote
Probably if Alaska gained independence, it would have to take on its share of the U.S. debt and compensate the federal government for some of the lands it takes.  

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1. The feds have a large latitude of Constitutionally-mandated power to control federal land...

I thought the Constitution did not even allow the feds to own land in the various states, outside of post offices and (arguably) army bases. Do you have documentation to the contrary? If what I think is true, we may have to deal with our share of the federal debt, but we sure don't have to pay them for land they are illegally holding!

Quote
2. The amount of land available for private ownership within a state for is physically reduced and even distorted by public lands within that state.

Yeah, but not as reduced as going to Delaware.  Wink

Quote
3. States with considerable amounts of public lands also have special interest groups that are politically mobilized to maintain or enlarge those lands by the government for the uses of those lands that politically motivate them.

Very true. But the other side of that coin is the irritation in the state at this outside meddling. That can be very useful to us:

1) It will be a talking point we can use to convince the people to give up their federal subsidies - dump subsidies, get lower taxes and get control of that land the feds are now holding.

2) It will be a big help in authentisizing the FSP in the eyes of the locals, if we push as hard as possible the issue or returning these lands to the state.
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Hank
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Re:Percent of Federal, State, and Private Land
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2003, 05:47:12 pm »

Zxcv,
The United States (aka, Federal Government) owned all of the land west of the Appalachians (they had bought it (or stole it) from other nations). The only land they now own is what nobody else claimed or were given for towns, mines, farms, ranches, railroads, schools, etc.  Mountains had most of the unclaimed area since usually only railroads or miners claimed such rough, unproductive land.

Somewhen in history the Federal Government shut off any more claims.
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Re:Percent of Federal, State, and Private Land
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2003, 07:05:39 pm »

The problem is that the Constitution doesn't allow the federal government to own any land. It specifically says, "To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, byCession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings. . ."

Nothing at all in there about making the Louisiana Purchase, or owning 70% of a state's land mass, etc., etc. It's very clear that the Feds don't need the vast majority of Alaska to erect forts, magazines, arsenals, dock-yards and other buildings.
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Rich T.
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Re:Percent of Federal, State, and Private Land
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2003, 08:31:49 am »

My premise is that the amount or percentage of federal land does not hurt the Free State! It is the amount of land left in private ownership which is the most important criteria! How is discounting a state because a large resource of forest, mountains, minerals, grassland, lakes, etc. is in federal ownership any different than discounting it for not having those resources in the first place? What if a smaller state has more square miles of private forest and mountains than a much larger state?

What is the area the Free State can actually use for private advantage? If you include any of the federally owned land then you are making a case for it being an advantage - mining, forests, water, recreation, grazing, etc. That the Free State would have to wrestle with the feds over access to that land must be compared to not having it at all -- if you just wrote off any access to it. So, regardless of the fed factor, such land is a net gain.

During the first decade or so of the Free State the amount of State-owned land may be a criteria - then again it may not for the same reasons above. It will take a long time for the State to divest itself of its holdings - if it does so at all given the public demand for parks, state game lands, etc.

Amount of land NOT owned by federal or state governments
in square miles
(this is not all privately owned since local city, county, and special districts own some)
State Percentage (fed & state own of total area)Area left
Maine 94.3%(1,762 of 30,865) 29,103
Delaware 92.6%(143 of 1,955) 1,812
South Dakota 91.1%(6,712 of 75,898) 69,186
North Dakota 90.8%(6,310 of 68,994) 62,684
Vermont 84%(1,458 of 9,249)   7,791
New Hampshire 82%(1,609 of 8,969) 7,360
 Montana 62.5%(54,545 of 145,556) 91,010
 Wyoming 44%(54,323 of 97,105)  42,782
 Idaho 29.6%(58,231 of 82,751) 24,520
 Alaska 4%(546,605 of 570,374) 23,770

Amount of land NOT owned by the federal government
in squre miles
State Percentage(fed own of total area) Area left
Maine 98.7%(373 of 30,865)   30,492
 Delaware 97.5%(48 of 1,955) 1,907
 North Dakota 92.6%(5,041 of 68,994) 63,953
 South Dakota 91.2%(6,572 of 75,898) 69,326
Vermont 85.8%(1,309 of 9,249) 7,940
New Hampshire 84.9%(1,352 of 8,969) 7,617
Montana 68.1%(46,426 of 145,556) 99,130
Wyoming 50.2%(48,284 of 97,105) 48,821
Idaho 34.8%(53,937 of 82,751) 28,814
Alaska 32.9%(382,230 of 570,374)188,145
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Re:Percent of Federal, State, and Private Land
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2003, 04:03:14 am »


3. States with considerable amounts of public lands also have special interest groups that are politically mobilized to maintain or enlarge those lands by the government for the uses of those lands that politically motivate them.

Not just those states but all states.  Heck, VT and NH (two states with very little federal land) always have groups stirring that are trying to get the cities or state to buy more land for use as a park or something.
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