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Topic: What about being an unwelcome presence? (Read 24264 times)
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Robert H.
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From Foster's Online - Dover, N.H.: Sunday, April 27, 2003 Libertarian utopia won’t happen here It looks like New Hampshire and Maine could be in the sights of invaders — and we’re not talking milfoil, either. Rather, both are among a handful of states with populations under 1.5 million being targeted by the Free State Project — a band of Libertarians who hope to take over a small state in the next five years and turn it into a utopia of limited government. The Free State Project, created by a Yale political science student, is trying to sign up 20,000 card-carry Libertarians for the experiment. He wants to have all of them move to a state yet to be chosen, get involved in the local politics to win over the state and then get to work to abolish laws regulating drugs, gambling, prostitution, guns, drinking and other issues. We’re all for limited government — but, of course, there are limits to limits. For Libertarians, we don’t see the establishment of utopia in New Hampshire or Maine — or anywhere else — any time soon. After all, how does one get 20,000 Libertarians to move to one place? And once you get them all there, imagine the complex political structure necessary to get them pulling in the same direction. For self-described individualists who are true to the Libertarian philosophy, that presents huge issues of control over one’s life and destiny. Not only that, taking over a state requires a lot of bureaucracy. And everyone knows that is the first step in building any big government. http://www4.fosters.com/News2003/April2003/April_27/Comment/ed_0427b.asp |
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George Reich
FSP Participant
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Posts: 546
I just *love* it when Hank and Dagny brainstorm!
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But notice how the New Hampshire editorial said, essentially, that the Free State would not happen here because it would not work. IT DID NOT SAY THE FSP WOULD BE UNWELCOME IN NH! Contrast the Foster's editorial to this one in the Idaho State Journal (and notice the different tone): Free Staters should look at other states A message to the Free State Project: Drop Idaho from your list of prospective states that might provide a safe haven for anti-government, pseudo-libertarians seeking to set up a free state where laws are limited and personal freedoms are limitless. Why? Over the past two years, Idaho's prevailing political atmosphere has gone from very conservative to somewhat more moderate. Essentially, balance is beginning to show itself in the notoriously overly-conservative Gem State. It's not likely, at least anytime soon, Idaho will be ready to turn its political reigns over to a group that wants to legalize drugs and prostitution - we're not that liberal. At the same time, we've moved away from being an ultra-conservative bastion of fierce individualism - our citizens understand the importance of governmental regulation when it comes to the air we breathe and the water we drink. The Western way of life is strong, however, and that works against the Free State Project wackos, too. The idea, they say, is to convince about 20,000 "free staters" to move to a chosen state over the course of five years. Once there, according to organizers, they'll set out to "sway the minds of residents." That won't work either. We're not that stupid. http://www.journalnet.com/articles/2003/04/25/opinion/opinion01.txt |
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If everyone were rich there would be no need for government assistance. If everyone were rich all children could attend private schools. If everyone were rich, government would become superfluous. Read the free e-book at this site: http://www.scienceofgettingrich.net |
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JasonPSorens
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Thanks for alerting me to this editorial. I've sent this response: Dear Editor,
I am responding to the editorial of April 27 entitled, "Libertarian utopia
won't happen here." The editorial criticizes the Free State Project for a
lack of realism.
However, the term "utopia" is actually not something we have ever applied
to ourselves; in fact, I'd say we're not utopian at all. While
libertarians believe in the long-run abolition of victimless crimes and
taxation without consent, only a fool would try to implement these
policies immediately, and risk social breakdown and political backlash.
If the Free State Project were to choose New Hampshire, I imagine that the
political agenda would revolve around whether we would like to adopt the
economic freedom of Hong Kong combined with the personal freedom of the
Netherlands. The ideas we'll present are not ones that haven't been tried
before.
As to a realistic structure to get us "all pulling in the same direction,"
we're working on it! If New Hampshire is chosen, we will work with the
taxpayers', gun-rights, and civil liberties groups already in New
Hampshire to forge a new, broad movement.
Sincerely,
Jason Sorens, President
Free State Project
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Audio signature (MP3) "Experience has shown that it is difficult, if not impossible, for a populous state to be run by good laws." --Aristotle, The Politics
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jgmaynard
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"The most adamant, vehement, New Hampshire boosters are conspicuous by their absence here....JGMaynard?" Hey... I'm here.. I think I posted in this forum not too long ago... Besides, we are too busy with getting this thing to work to chat in forums much  The Foster's Daily Democrat is not really known for it's mainstream coverage...  But, I'll write them a LTE anyway... Anyway, was there something you wanted me to talk about? lol... JM |
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The Light of Alexandria By James Maynard A history of the first 1,000 years of science, and how it changed the ancient world, and our world today. http://www.lightofalexandria.com
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jgmaynard
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This is the letter I intend to send tomorrow unless there are major objections: To the Editor: I have recently read your article “Libertarian Utopia will not Happen Hereâ€. As the southwest NH media coordinator for the Free State Project, I wish to clarify a few misconceptions you may have about the FSP. First, we are not looking for, nor expecting, a utopia. That is best left to science fiction writers, and dreamers. What we want is what makes New Hampshire the greatest state in the country; a small, responsible, accountable Government. We want real tax relief, we want to insure that our children are given the best education possible by opening the doors for private and home schooling; and we want our seniors to be safe, by keeping violent people behind bars, and standing up for the rights of the victim. The FSP is not only for “card carrying Libertariansâ€; our organization welcomes Republicans, Greens, Democrats, Independents and all others. We welcome the diversity and strength that comes from many people working together in the cause of freedom and Liberty. We don't want a radical agenda; we want to protect our families better than they are protected now. We want property tax relief so that people may save, support local business, or start the home business they have always dreamed of. We want to provide educational opportunities for our youth; save the New Hampshire advantage by avoiding a broad-based tax, and ensure the sanctity of our environment by providing free market solutions to pollution. We in New Hampshire have always known that our system of Government is the finest, and most accountable in the world. It is only in New Hampshire that we get to meet candidates for even the highest political offices; the people of the Free State Project want to keep it that way. The New Hampshire way of life is one of personal responsibility and reward. It is one of small Government, and the benefits of self-employment and a low taxes. There are nine other states being considered for the Free State Project, but New Hampshire is the state whose people and Government are closest to the goals we seek. The 20,000 members who will seek freedom in one state will not be taking up jobs; we will be creating them. We will not take away opportunities for New Hampshire citizens, we will expand them. And we will not ruin the New Hampshire way of life; we will ensure it. I encourage everyone in the Granite State to learn more about the Free State Project by visiting www.freestateproject.org or www.nhorbust.com . The Free State Project is not about creating a utopia; it is about reaching the heights of human potential. |
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The Light of Alexandria By James Maynard A history of the first 1,000 years of science, and how it changed the ancient world, and our world today. http://www.lightofalexandria.com
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George Reich
FSP Participant
Global Moderator
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Posts: 546
I just *love* it when Hank and Dagny brainstorm!
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Very nice, Jim.  |
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If everyone were rich there would be no need for government assistance. If everyone were rich all children could attend private schools. If everyone were rich, government would become superfluous. Read the free e-book at this site: http://www.scienceofgettingrich.net |
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Palindrome
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Very well written, indeed! Kudos.
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Kelton Baker
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Recently, word of that article that first appeared in the Spokesman Review, More activists have eye on state made it to the Idaho State Journal. In response, this was found in the opinion page there: YOUR VIEW: Libertarians in Idaho
My husband and I found your article on the Libertarians frightening.
For anyone to even think they could take over one state and turn it into a lawless wasteland is the scariest thing I've ever heard, add in that these misguided kids think Idaho would be good ... Well, I was relieved when I read, "Project officials say a major downside for Idaho is its Mormon population."
As a member of that population, I can assure them that is true. I would definitely rally behind any cause in opposition of this group. In fact, I will do everything in my power to convince as many of my out-of-state Mormon friends and family as I can to move here! To increase our numbers against this insidious threat.
But I'd go further than that, I'd get MADD to rally too. Drug addicts are as much if not more, of a danger behind the wheel than a drunk. I'm sure MADD would gladly rally to prevent such a travesty.
I am also pleased that Gov. Kempthorne was displeased with the news. I hope that means he will use every means at his disposal to prevent it.
And, Viola Carter, would you join me a fight, if it comes to that?
BonnieLe Hamilton,
Fort HallBeing the sole instigator of the thread, "Why Mormons Should Be Libertarians" on the Religion & Liberty thread, I felt it incumbent upon me to be the first one to point this one out. We face an uphill battle, here folks, and I don't think this is endemic to just Mormons, or even soccer-moms, it is a huge misunderstanding of libertarian principles among the populace everywhere. 1191 |
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Give me some men who are stout-hearted men Who will fight for the right they adore. Start me with ten, who are stout-hearted men And I'll soon give you ten thousand more...--O. Hammerstein
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Zack Bass
Guest
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We face an uphill battle, here folks, and I don't think this is endemic to just Mormons, or even soccer-moms, it is a huge misunderstanding of libertarian principles among the populace everywhere.
I know what you mean about people who misunderstand our goals, but I didn't see anything in this woman's rant that indicated misunderstanding. She knows what we stand for, and she opposes it. I believe the huge majority of Statists feel the way she does, and therefore there is no way we can ever ever ever convince them. Do you think you could sit her down and explain slowly and carefully what we REALLY intend to do, and she would welcome us? We will win by gathering enough lovers of Liberty together to outvote the native Statists; first in one small place, and then that will attract the rest when they see we CAN make a difference. |
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Robert H.
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I know what you mean about people who misunderstand our goals, but I didn't see anything in this woman's rant that indicated misunderstanding. She knows what we stand for, and she opposes it.
 She thinks we're trying to create a "lawless wasteland" and fill the streets with dangerous elements; that's not what we're trying to do at all. I believe the huge majority of Statists feel the way she does, and therefore there is no way we can ever ever ever convince them.
We can dispel some of these libertarian sterotype myths at the very least. People might put their crucifixes and garlic back in the drawer if we did that.  Do you think you could sit her down and explain slowly and carefully what we REALLY intend to do, and she would welcome us?
At least she might not still think that the sky was falling. Maybe just part of it. |
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« Last Edit: May 01, 2003, 02:10:56 am by RobertH »
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Robert H.
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From the FSP article posted by James Maynard: A spokesperson for Wyoming Gov. Dave Freudenthal (D) said Free State members are free to move to Wyoming or any other state.
"They're welcome to participate in the state government, but of course they'll be subject to the same state and federal laws as everyone else," press secretary Lara Azar said.http://www.stateline.org/story.do?storyId=302832Bear in mind that this welcome is coming from a Democrat! And I believe it's quite a contrast to the response we received from the governor's offices in Idaho and Montana. |
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« Last Edit: May 01, 2003, 02:05:18 am by RobertH »
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George Reich
FSP Participant
Global Moderator
Offline
Posts: 546
I just *love* it when Hank and Dagny brainstorm!
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From the FSP article posted by James Maynard: A spokesperson for Wyoming Gov. Dave Freudenthal (D) said Free State members are free to move to Wyoming or any other state.
"They're welcome to participate in the state government, but of course they'll be subject to the same state and federal laws as everyone else," press secretary Lara Azar said.http://www.stateline.org/story.do?storyId=302832Bear in mind that this welcome is coming from a Democrat! And I believe it's quite a contrast to the response we received from the governor's offices in Idaho and Montana. I'd call it more of a statement of the obvious than a welcome. But at least it is neutral as opposed to the negative comments from ID and MT. |
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If everyone were rich there would be no need for government assistance. If everyone were rich all children could attend private schools. If everyone were rich, government would become superfluous. Read the free e-book at this site: http://www.scienceofgettingrich.net |
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Robert H.
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I'd call it more of a statement of the obvious than a welcome. But at least it is neutral as opposed to the negative comments from ID and MT.
Well, it does say that we are welcome to participate in state politics, which is a term I don't believe I've seen any other state officials use outside of state LP's. And coming from a Democratic governor's office, it does seem even a bit more unlikely when directed toward an organization intent upon reducing the size and scope of government. Then again, it's difficult to imagine that any Democrat who manages to win the governership in a solid Republican state like Wyoming can be a hardline liberal (at least openly). The news stories I've followed seem to indicate that Freudenthal hasn't raised much sand with the Republican dominated legislature. So, either he's not that big of a liberal, or he's being coy. The fact that he didn't outright tell us to get lost makes me think it's probably the former; a fact that makes the statement from Idaho's GOP governor's office even more bothersome. |
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vermass
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This thread begins with heyduke telling us we're not welcome in NH. I have been trying to keep up with all postings in this forum. Heyduke is a apparently a minority in NH. Does he get out much?
I signed up with the FSP and thought VT would be the best choice. I read and compared states, and [finally] downloaded the spreadsheet. There are some states that stand out and some states (I feel) that really could be taken off the list.
I've went from VT to NH to WY and now I have to say am taking another serious look at NH. Why? I'll tell you. It seems that we have the most support going into NH and in NH allready. Yes, WY has it's strong supporters but how many are LIVING in WY and plowing the field for the FSP?
Some people are blowing off this meeting with the governer. "He hasn't got that much power" (I'm paraphrasing) ect. Come on. Lets be real. Yes, I KNOW HE won't be in office when we make our move but still. You have got to give the NH libertarians and FSPer's their do. They are doing a helluva job. People say some of the tactics some of them have used have been questionable. Just look at the support they've raised. I ask how much FPS support is there IN WY? I know, I know, the population thing, and yes you gotta LOVE those WY sheriffs.
I feel guilty about supporting NH because it would be very easy for me to move there. I live in MA and NH is a short drive. Shopping for a house will be much easier than if WY is chosen; I can just take a drive and look at houses. My company can also transfer me to NH with the SAME PAY. Same job, same pay (I like my pay). My sister was not happy with the possibilty of 2/3 the country separating us (it is my sister I am closest to in life). My parents are not too happy about it either but the state choice is not about convienience, it's about success. It is very hard to say where our greatest chance of success lies, it's so close. Yes, I feel guilty that I "get of" easy if NH is chosen, but just because I "get off" easy, I shouldn't overlook NH!
NH is beautiful. I've been out west and it is beautiful also but of the candidate states AK is the most beautiful with NH and VT tied for second, IMO. The NH rolling hills also make it easier to "get lost" on smaller plots of land than out west. If you own 20 acres in NE you likely will not be able to see your nieghbors house not even in winter, most definately not in summer (vegitation grows thick). Westerners who think they couldn't stand it in the northeast might be smitten by those rolling green hills. I don't know. I do know I love NH and have thought many times about moving there.
I try very hard to remian totally objective about my two top states: WY and NH, I'm just not so sure that sometimes NH doesn't suffer from me automatically scrutinizing all information relating to it more harshly than WY.
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"Give me liberty or give me death!"
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Robert H.
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I try very hard to remian totally objective about my two top states: WY and NH, I'm just not so sure that sometimes NH doesn't suffer from me automatically scrutinizing all information relating to it more harshly than WY.
I wouldn't feel guilty about being tempted to go with the choice that is more convenient in relation to family, friends, jobs, etc. Most of us are facing the prospect of relocation across a significant distance, and I can personally attest to the pressure that family and friends can bring to bear (even unintentionally). All of this is perfectly understandable. Ultimately, the important thing is to size up your vision of what the FSP can accomplish over the short term, the long term, and with regard to freedom in general as opposed to simply securing various levels of freedom in one particular state (convenient or not). I know this will sound pessimistic, but I do not agree with the idea that one free state will cause the other 49 to fall like dominoes. Human nature and history dictate that the odds are extremely long against such a scenario. There's a sense of urgency here as well, at least there is for me. With things like the Patriot Act and increased globalization coming down the pipeline, I believe that we have only a relatively short amount of time to act. Placement is crucial. This movement must be placed where significant levels of freedom can be achieved in a relatively short period of time, and then sustained (or expanded) over a longer period of time, where the population is as individualistic and self-sufficient as possible, where our neighboring states are either most likely to make common cause with us or simply less likely to interefere with us, and where we are most likely to fly under the radar of the media and political elitists who could do us so much harm. |
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