 Author
|
Topic: Negative Post-Vote coverage from within NH (Read 10100 times)
|
BillG
Guest
|
"Classical liberalism" that supports owning other human beings as property is a contradiction in terms Was not Jefferson, who libertarians love to quote as one of their favorite founding fathers, a "classical liberal"? didn't he "own" slaves? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Brian Kelley
|
Was not Jefferson, who libertarians love to quote as one of their favorite founding fathers, a "classical liberal"?
didn't he "own" slaves?
So you're saying there's a difference between theory and practice? Or that classical liberalism as a theory is invalid? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
For some years I have been afflicted with the belief that flight is possible to man.
- Wilbur Wright
|
|
|
BillG
Guest
|
So you're saying there's a difference between theory and practice? yes - Jefferson, the slave owner, was a signer of the declaration of independance which described the sanctity of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... Or that classical liberalism as a theory is invalid? No, but I do think (like above) that most so-called libertarians (neos) today violate all three tenents of classical liberalism (life, liberty, property) with their views on land and that Geo-libertarians are in alignment with those "original" views today... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Zack Bass
Guest
|
Was not Jefferson, who libertarians love to quote as one of their favorite founding fathers, a "classical liberal"?
didn't he "own" slaves?
Yes, it's true, libertarianism is far better than classical liberalism. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
SteveA
|
They say, "Love it or leave it." I say YES.
They say, "If you don't like it, move." I say YES.
They say, "You have to vote to make a difference." I say YES.
Yes to the FSP, Yes to New Hampshire, Yes to FREEDOM! I like your sig, yes to America  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Fruitless, born a thousand times, lies barren. Unguided inspiration, yields random motion, circumscribed in destination, going nowhere. Guidance uninspired, always true in facing, stands immobile. But fixed upon that destination firmly and with inspiration lofted; beget your dreams."
|
|
|
|
JonM
|
I think I'll post this in both threads, since it's being discussed here. The monitor returns fire: Maligned I must say, I admire their willingness to print so many LTE's in response to this one editorial. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
BillG
Guest
|
I swear on the confederate flag that I don't work for the Monitor... an early quote from me: Zack - the "anyone" you are speak about were actually consider "no one" back then...as a matter of fact they were thought of as "property" and the exact same argument used today against violation of "property rights" was used back then to justify slavery.
So is it unreasonable to surmise that there would be clasical liberals back then who would make this argument - there were a number who did - right? The Monitor's response today to FSP members sending letters to the editor: (The writer chairs the Libertarian Party of South Central Michigan. Since he asks about our editorial statement regarding Libertarians and slavery, here's our thinking. During the mid-19th century, the vast majority of Americans, and even a vast majority of Union soldiers who sacrificed their lives, viewed African-Americans as a subhuman species. It's easy for Libertarians to say they would have regarded African-Americans otherwise, but it's also highly doubtful. We're all abolitionists now. The prime tenet of Libertarianism is to protect property against coercive government action. The slaves were property, legally acquired and held under an institution protected by the Constitution. What could be more coercive than for the government to make war on citizens - even rebellious citizens - with the express aim, after Jan. 1, 1863, of confiscating private property? - Ed.) |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
LeRuineur6
|
The prime tenet of Libertarianism is to protect property against coercive government action. Really? I thought the prime tenets of libertarianism are personal freedom, economic freedom, peace, and free trade. This editor is laughable. What could be more coercive than for the government to make war on citizens - even rebellious citizens - with the express aim, after Jan. 1, 1863, of confiscating private property? Unfortunately, he's right about this. The South just wanted to be left alone, not invaded. The North had no right to invade. No right whatsoever. We invaded Vietnam and Iraq, too, all in the name of "freeing" people. If you supported those actions, then you should support the North's position on invading the South during the Civil War. Otherwise, you're being inconsistent. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Please donate $5 to $10 per month to the Liberty Scholarship Fund!"Noncooperation is intended to pave the way to real, honorable, and voluntary cooperation based on mutual respect and trust." -Gandhi
|
|
|
|
onyx_goddess
|
The original article didn't say "And if the FSPers had been around during slavery they would have been against the Civil War, etc", the statement in the original article was much more sweeping than that. For the editor to try and give this explanation is simply dishonestly grasping at straws to explain a false statement.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Happiness is fleeting
When your heart is barely beating
|
|
|
|
BedfordCSE
|
Hello Again, New FSP Friends,
I would like to comment on the state of the press here in NH and a few other things mentioned in this thread.
If anything, the reaction of papers such as the Concord Monitor and the Nashua Telegraph brought your group to the attention of many, even while demonstrating just how much the Bay State "mentality" has affected us here especially in Southern NH. We still hope the influx of your people will help groups like ours keep NH a "Live Free" state, with less taxes, less government and more freedom. Many of us fled the Bay State (as I did in '89) for just that purpose.
To accuse Libertarians of things like being unopposed to slavery is about as unapplicable as it is ridiculous. However, this is a predictable, pre-emptive, across the board, liberal smear tactic to try to tarnish your image as quickly and completely as possible with the worst thing they can think of.
We are quite familiar with these tactics and have learned to work around them. Sometimes it's best just not to respond.
The person who wrote in to one paper, sick with worry about "immigrants" really doesn't have a clue as what this is all about.
They talk about preserving the simple NH life, and can't figure out that this is what you want too? You will always get a few of those...
In any case, keep up the good work. We can only hope to stave off statewide and local tax increases until the "troops" arrive.
NH is still the best state to target for "saving" in my opinion and we can't wait for reinforcements!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
LeRuineur6
|
I agree with you.
We should respond to new unfounded claims quickly, but responding to repetitive claims on the same topic are a waste of our time. We're only legitimizing a debate if we respond to such ridiculous claims on a repetitive basis.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Please donate $5 to $10 per month to the Liberty Scholarship Fund!"Noncooperation is intended to pave the way to real, honorable, and voluntary cooperation based on mutual respect and trust." -Gandhi
|
|
|
|
BedfordCSE
|
As for the Union Leader, you have to understand just how independent they are and take their off-beat welcome as a BIG compliment. They don't give compliments easily!
They are very independent and Joe tells it like it is when he shrugs and basically says, no big deal that these folks want less government, less taxes, more freedom, and that they are coming here, becase that is what a lot of NHerites have always wanted.
It sort of helps to make the rest of the press look like the liberal whiners that they are.
Good enough!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
SteveA
|
Thanks for the feedback BedfordCSE. Actually, even here in CA people are beginning to realize the media has a socialist bias though on occasion I've found myself falling prey to some misleading articles (later I read about what's really going on and think "I should've known better" lol ). It's likely best to keep the LTEs flowing. We're going to hit resistance as issues are brought out (even bogus ones the media wants to create) but public debate is on our side. We've been sheep for too long. If a paper has biases it'll become more publicly obvious and they lose credibility. There are only so many lies you can tell before the inevitable skepticism creeps in. Media that lies will inevitably suffer from foot-in-mouth disease  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Fruitless, born a thousand times, lies barren. Unguided inspiration, yields random motion, circumscribed in destination, going nowhere. Guidance uninspired, always true in facing, stands immobile. But fixed upon that destination firmly and with inspiration lofted; beget your dreams."
|
|
|
|
Elwar
|
Personally, I've not really been offended by most of the opposing slams against us that I've read.
A lot of it I'm nodding my head even though the writer is meaning to make us sound bad.
Getting rid of taxes, medical marijuana, getting rid of public schools.
My only grievance with that is...why stop at medical marijuana?
The Democrat leader calling us 'anarchists'?
Well, there are a few of those in the group as well. I just imagine most people don't understand what that really means.
The article that said libertarians are just a bunch of 'me firsters'. All I could think is, that's a whole lot better than the statists who want to run your life first. 'Me first' includes, who's going to support my children? 'Me' Who's going to decide what books to read? 'Me' Who's responsible for my future? 'Me'
I guess the only people their message is going out to is those people who's lives they want to continue to exploit. To me, I find the parts where they tell the truth about us to be dead on.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The worst thing that can be done to society is for someone to try to help society.
|
|
|
|
Tracy Saboe
|
[quote author=Karl Beisel As for MTBE release levels, most free staters, once familiar with the issue, would likely agree with James' position. For an explaination of the MTBE issue: New Hampshire sues over MTBEWell, as long as that settlement money goes to the land-owners who'se property has been damaged I guess I don't have too much problem with it. The main thing I think Maynard mischarecterizes is the "woman's right to choose" thing. I think Free Staters are about as evenly divided about abortion as the Libertarian party, and the electorate as a whole. Both of the current main-runners for Libertarian Presidential nomination believe abortion is immoral, as it's a violation of the right of the pri-born to own it's own body. (However they do believe it's a state issue as murder is constitutionally a state issue.) The choice that the woman has typically is wether or not to have sex in the first place. Here are quite a few arguments for why abortion is murder. http://www.l4l.org/library/index.htmlAlso it's impossible for government to be totally neutral. Even if all it does is police protection of abortionists that could be seen by many as forcing some people to pay for the protection of these they believe is murder. That could definetly be argued as tyranny by many things Jefferson said. A preborn has an unalienible right to life, liberty, and property also, just like anybody else. See also my article http://ed.augie.edu/~tosaboe/abortion.htmlTracy Saboe |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
 |
Home
Help
Search
Login
Register
