 Poll
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| Question: |
What will the FSP achieve?
| A stronger Libertarian movement in state X |
   4 (9.5%) |
| Mild reform of local laws. |
3 (7.1%) |
| Mild reform of state laws |
0 (0%) |
| Moderate reform of state and local laws |
7 (16.7%) |
| Major reform of state and local laws |
13 (31%) |
| Some autonomy from the federal gov. |
10 (23.8%) |
| Secession |
5 (11.9%) |
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| Total Voters: 35 |
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Topic: Will it work (Read 3813 times)
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vmd1
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What do you think will come of all this?  |
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Brien
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I think this poll is a bit confusing. For example, will it work over a period of one year, five years, or 25 years? Will it work, for whom? Maybe it will work for some, but not others. I admire your inquisitive mind but I trust you know there are no guarantees in this life. If people follow their conscience, and be true to the values they expound upon here in this forum, then they can make a difference. Whether it be in NH, or the other 49 states. Libertarianism just has a better chance of working when people work together locally within the framework of our present day society and under the Constitution which we all live today. That said, I will vote, as best I can to reflect my thoughts. |
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« Last Edit: August 02, 2005, 03:26:19 pm by Brien »
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No country can be well governed unless its citizens as a body keep religiously before their minds that they are the guardians of the law, and that the law officers are only the machinery for its execution, nothing more......M. T.
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punkrawk
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I think the FSP will accomplish most of these poll options over the course of my lifetime. It may start with small reforms at the state and local level, with more major reforms in certain localities. I eventually hope that we'll see some autonomy from the federal government, and the increasing egregiousness of the feds will only increase our chances.
My selling point to other freedom lovers is the FSP is already increasing freedoms in NH, and no other movement is seeing any measurable success.
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-Bryan Stevenson
"to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical" - Thomas Jefferson
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lloydbob1
Guest
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Don't over think this. Move to New Hampshire. It is already a good place to live, and, our increased numbers can only make it better.
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JonM
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Judge not the snowball at the top of the mountain.
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"Hagrid"
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Again,
What has the FSP or its Porcupines actually repealed or changed to increase freedom?
Come on. I'm not even a New Englander and I'm calling your bluff.
Show your cards.
The FSP does nothing. Porcs have done (among other things) The NHLA report card. The Red Light Camera Bill. Many of us testified and helped kill bills (or supported bills) that way. Outlaw Manicurist. TSA challenge. Helped form the RLCNH Worked with the CNHT on a variety of issues. and more... not bad for having nearly zero elected officials (yet). Give us time. The snowball is tiny on the mountain top, but it's there, and growing every single week. |
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Brien
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It may start with small reforms at the state and local level, with more major reforms in certain localities. I eventually hope that we'll see some autonomy from the federal government, and the increasing egregiousness of the feds will only increase our chances. Or squash your efforts like a DEA/ATF raid. What laws have Porcupines gotten changed or repealed? What freedoms have you increased? One Porcupine on a school board ain't gonna change much. Even one each on several school boards or town boards ain't gonna be much other than another crowing point about getting somebody elected. What have they done? Muleskinner: I have read several of your posts and admire your attitudes on the 2nd Amendment, for example. I can only point out here what I, as an individual do on the local level, here in Connecticut. I don't really consdier myself a "porc" but I am surely a Libertarian. I pointed out in another post that I sit on the Zoning Board of Appeals in a small Connecticut town. Now, this will make many porc and Libertarians puke at first until they understand my motives. I have the opportunity to overturn restrictive zonig decisions that prevent the private property owner from doing what he/she wishes to do with their own property. This is working and implementing Libertarian principles from the inside out. Now, I am only one person. I can only do so much in my own way. But I do make a DIFFERENCE to the property owner. So as long as there are restrictive zoning laws, and boards that enforce them, there will be a board of appleals on which I can make a difference. BTW, we grant the variance in 90% of all appeals brought to us. So you can say "big deal" but it does set an example of how things can be changed on the local level. Change has to occur from the bottom up, not from the top down. And it will take time. The amount of time depends upon the amount of change one is addressing. Local change is quicker than at the state level, that can be quicker than the Federal level. If anyone thinks that there will be a massive "revolution" that will change all of the restrcitive laws that bind the hands of Liberty, then I think they ought to reconsider, their vision of change. It comes slowly, creeps in like the tide, and most people won't even notice it until the boats have risen back up to the dock of Liberty.   |
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No country can be well governed unless its citizens as a body keep religiously before their minds that they are the guardians of the law, and that the law officers are only the machinery for its execution, nothing more......M. T.
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Brien
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Muleskinner: Thank you for your kind words. I only attempt in my own way to make change in a positive manner in my Libertarian thinking and ways. We all have to make decisions for ourselves on how to be effective to bring about meaning political change. Sometimes it comes with maturity, other times it may come from political motivation born of frustration with the current government and structure. Sometimes I get a little confused here at the FSP website because I was under the impression the FSP was a movement composed of Libertarians, either registered with the LP or not.  But I am not so sure about this now. Thus, my reluctance to announce my intentions and alignment. I am strictly Libertarian. I believe in the US Constitution and I am a student of American History who concentrated in Early American History. Graduated Rutgers University in 1977, Degree in American History. I seek spirited debate but I am too often disappointed in the "de-volution" of debating ideas into personal attacks upon those who debate. I lived in NH for many years from 1970 through 1986. I have lived in Pembroke, West Chesterfield, and in the "Upper Valley" of the Connecticut River near Hanover. I have travelled the state extensively and there are not many NH towns in which I have not been in at one time or another. I still have many long time close friends located throughout the entire state. As you may know from my posts, my children were both born in Lebanon. If I decide to move back, then it will have nothing to do with the "porcs" and the FSP. Primarily because the FSP seems to be a very splintered group that can't seem to agree on much for a political strategy. Perhaps my perception is erroneous, but it still remains my perception. I futhermore, can deduct, if this is my perception, how many have visited this site and came away with the same understandings, correctly or incorrectly? When participants attack posters after their first initial posts, what are they to think? This certainly happened to me. I shrugged it off because I have been attacked for my writings before and I realize there are two types of people in this world. Those who discuss "people" and those who discuss "ideas."  I prefer the latter. Sometimes people get me "going" and I stray from this unwritten rule, but I generally try to stick to it. However, I am only human!!!!! Once again, thank you for your support in my post. |
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« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 01:03:37 pm by Brien »
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No country can be well governed unless its citizens as a body keep religiously before their minds that they are the guardians of the law, and that the law officers are only the machinery for its execution, nothing more......M. T.
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Rocketman
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If I decide to move back, then it will have nothing to do with the "porcs" and the FSP.Â
Brien, Nobody really cares much whether you actually join the FSP or associate directly with its members. If you move to NH and are willing to work toward liberty, you will be welcomed by the LPNH, the NHLA, and/or any other pro-liberty group you choose to associate with. The dialogue on these forums does not reflect the interaction that's already happening in New Hampshire, and if you don't like what some FSP participants are or aren't doing, don't let it bother you too much. There are bad oranges in every bushel. I've been an LP member for several years, and I want the LP to succeed, but I realize (and I'm glad) the LP doesn't have a monopoly on the politics of freedom. Many FSP participants will support the LP, and some will not, but restricting FSP participation to self-proclaimed "libertarians" would be just plain foolish. Regardless, expect the LPNH to become the most successful state LP ever, and soon, largely because of FSP participants who make the move. To answer Muleskinner's question, the FSP is already working. Committed, enthusiastic people are working together to achieve liberty in their lifetimes, and the results will be increasingly obvious within the next year or two. Come join the effort, or please stay home and keep your negative thoughts to yourself. At this point, "Will it work?" is not a constructive question. The ship has already left the dock, and I'll be happily climbing aboard within the next year. So, will it work? I can't say for sure, but nothing else has worked, and NH is probably our only hope. All aboard! |
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« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 02:46:27 pm by Rocketman »
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5/13/06: I'M HOME!!!!!!!!! #401!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Brien
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Nobody really cares much whether you actually join the FSP or associate directly with its members. If you move to NH and are willing to work toward liberty, you will be welcomed by the LPNH, the NHLA, and/or any other pro-liberty group you choose to associate with. The dialog on these forums does not reflect the interaction that's already happening in New Hampshire, and if you don't like what some FSP participants are or aren't doing, don't let it bother you too much. There are bad oranges in every bushel.
I've been an LP member for several years, and I want the LP to succeed, but I realize (and I'm glad) the LP doesn't have a monopoly on the politics of freedom. Many FSP participants will support the LP, and some will not, but restricting FSP participation to self-proclaimed "libertarians" would be just plain foolish. Regardless, expect the LPNH to become the most successful state LP ever, and soon, largely because of FSP participants who make the move
Rocketman.Â
I thank you for the information because I really don't know what to think about this site, yet. I don't think my input is important at all. My participation is "neither here nor there" as they say. I don't take myself that seriously. I did think the dialog here did indeed reflect what is happening in my old stomping grounds of NH I will take you at your word.
I was mistaken that this was a Libertarian sponsored movement that was all inclusive. I agree that the LP shouldn't exclude anyone who is actually for liberty but if I see Anarchist(s) clouding the Libertarian Party waters, I certainly draw the line with regard to my agreement as to their inclusiveness in the LP, and any movement they may sponsor. I have defined Anarchy and the Anarchist in another thread and no one disagreed with me. I may be out on a limb here, but I don't think that the LP would agree with their political philosophy. However, just my opinion.Â
So let's see now. The FSP is NOT a Libertarian sponsored movement. It is a loosely knit group of people whose political philosophy on Liberty differs as widely as does the weather in the Granite State. I will go back an re-read the philosophy as posted by Jason. Surely, I am missing something here.
Oh, and my comment you highlighted only meant that this site will not influence my decision to move back to NH for political reasons. It could discourage my participation in the FSP. But as you point out, who cares?  My comment only meant that I exist as a single entity and cherish my liberty as such. If I did move back, and hooked up with people of similar political understandings as mine, then great. If not, it would not change the way I vote and participate in politics. I am already a Libertarian and vote and participate in government as such. So to whom this matters, what care I ?
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« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 03:58:39 pm by Brien »
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No country can be well governed unless its citizens as a body keep religiously before their minds that they are the guardians of the law, and that the law officers are only the machinery for its execution, nothing more......M. T.
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Rocketman
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Brien,
To be clear about my own experience, I have only visited NH twice. Once was last December, when I met and interacted with 30-40 early movers and native porcs. Some were LP members, others were republicans, and a few were anarchists. All struck me as positive, committed liberty activists who want to keep NH free and work to make it an even brighter beacon of liberty than it already is. There was none of the typical "debatertarian" quibbling; the focus of conversation was on effective action to achieve more liberty. I left inspired, and I signed the Statement of Intent as soon as I got back to my computer.
My second NH visit was at Porcfest last week. I met literally hundreds of freedom-loving people who are planning moves to NH. Yeah, there are a few people I don't exactly love, but for the most part, people seemed very friendly and respectful. The people who already live in NH are the ones I pay most attention to (they all seem to "get it"), and those who are obviously and sincerely planning to move soon. These folks have glimpsed what is possible in NH, and the can-do attitude is something I didn't see much at the last LP convention (my first).
On the other hand, there is no movement for liberty here in Kentucky. There is no pro-liberty group watching the government and trying to alter it. There is no real LP presence here -- I was one of only two members who bothered to attend the national convention. I'd like to change Kentucky, but I feel that my efforts here would be largely wasted. In NH I will be considerably more free the second I cross the border, and I will be surrounded by supportive groups of liberty activists who will help me settle in and encourage me in whatever pro-liberty actions suit me best. I'd suggest that what appear to you as "splinter groups" are really fibers in the rope of liberty, a rope that grows stronger every time somebody makes the move.
How could I possibly stay here and be a lonely, powerless thread trying to stop the train of big government? Ben Franklin said, "Where there is liberty, there is my country." If you want to make a real difference for liberty (and posterity), I believe NH is the place to do it. You should really meet the early movers and native NH porcupines for yourself and form your own opinions about the actions they are taking. By and large, the most effective activists in NH are too busy to waste much of their time on the forums.Â
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5/13/06: I'M HOME!!!!!!!!! #401!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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punkrawk
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So let's see now. The FSP is NOT a Libertarian sponsored movement.
It is not sponsored or affiliated with the Libertarian Party. The goal is pretty simple and is summed up in the statement of intent: I hereby state my solemn intent to move to the state of New Hampshire. Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.Oh, and my comment you highlighted only meant that this site will not influence my decision to move back to NH for political reasons. It could discourage my participation in the FSP. But as you point out, who cares?
I for one care. The more people who officially sign up and officially move, the better. That increases the FSPs legitimacy and publicity. What laws have Porcupines gotten changed or repealed? What freedoms have you increased? One Porcupine on a school board ain't gonna change much. Even one each on several school boards or town boards ain't gonna be much other than another crowing point about getting somebody elected. What have they done?
Protests and demonstrations and news articles. Did they get some laws changed?
Where's the "beef" to the claim that "the FSP is already increasing freedoms in NH"?
Thank goodness your pessimism isn't contagious, Muleskinner. I'll bring up a few things that are significant IMO, and that can be traced in some way to FSP'ers. The first is the homschooling bill, which was tabled until the next session, but is likely to pass. In fact, momentum is so good that the homeschoolers (led by FSP'ers) are thinking about submitting another bill at the start of the next session. http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=9199.0http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=9599.0The 2nd is Warrant Article 4 in Keene. http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=9541.0In addition, a number of FSP-types have been elected to various government positions. http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=9491.0http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=8164.0So, Muleskinner, we've shown you our cards. What the heck are you holding? I'd guess that you don't have much of a hand there buddy. It may start with small reforms at the state and local level, with more major reforms in certain localities. I eventually hope that we'll see some autonomy from the federal government, and the increasing egregiousness of the feds will only increase our chances. Or squash your efforts like a DEA/ATF raid. I said "some autonomy". Many states have done things to work around or refuse to comply with federal mandates. I believe it was Minnesota that charged 25 cents for speeding tickets in order to comply with federally mandated speed limits. One Western state basically deputized all of its citizens to get around the safe school zone gun bans. Virginia refused Clinton's Goals 2000 funding, etc, etc. No DEA/ATF raids there. Those are the types of things that will start the move toward "some autonomy" for New Hampshirites. The tide is turning! Freedom is on the move! |
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-Bryan Stevenson
"to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical" - Thomas Jefferson
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Brien
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Brien,
You should really meet the early movers and native NH porcupines for yourself and form your own opinions about the actions they are taking. By and large, the most effective activists in NH are too busy to waste much of their time on the forums. Rocketman. I would l very much enjoy meeting people of like minded political persuasions. I lived in NH from 1970 until 1986. Many of my closest friends still live, work and VOTE there. My children were born in Lebanon.  I come to this forum with a wealth of NH experience, culturally, geographically, and politically. I am not too busy to "waste" my time sharing my experiences. Not to be offensive, but I was there before some of you were born. Unfortunately my health will not allow me to travel to festivals. Sorry. Some may choose to respect what I write, others may not. So be it. |
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« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 07:43:02 pm by Brien »
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No country can be well governed unless its citizens as a body keep religiously before their minds that they are the guardians of the law, and that the law officers are only the machinery for its execution, nothing more......M. T.
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Dreepa
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Brien,
There are 6690 members of the FSP. Don't take offense to what some write.
I care.. I want you to join so that the FSP gets to 20K quicker.
Your posts from what I have seen seem ok by me.
Muleskinner,
only 374 porcs are in NH.... you got to give it some time and some more people before you can be critical of what they have done.
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Brien
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So let's see now. The FSP is NOT a Libertarian sponsored movement.
It is not sponsored or affiliated with the Libertarian Party. The goal is pretty simple and is summed up in the statement of intent: I hereby state my solemn intent to move to the state of New Hampshire. Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.Oh, and my comment you highlighted only meant that this site will not influence my decision to move back to NH for political reasons. It could discourage my participation in the FSP. But as you point out, who cares?
I for one care. The more people who officially sign up and officially move, the better. That increases the FSPs legitimacy and publicity. Ok.  I understand now that the FSP is NOT a Libertarian sponsored movement.  Thank you.  However, I don't understand what the FSP seeks to accomplish in such broad rhetoric of "the protection of life, liberty and property"? Does that mean under the protection of the United States Constitution?  If so, then why not state it in these terms? How do you expect reasonable people to extract themselves from their roots to just pick up and move to NH to align themselves with a movement that has such ambiguous goals based upon rhetoric that we hear everyday from Washington DC? I think the FSP should perhaps define its goals in a more specific agenda.  For if what you write is true, then there is no common political, cultural and geographical language.  Need I point out, without this, why it may be doomed to failure? |
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No country can be well governed unless its citizens as a body keep religiously before their minds that they are the guardians of the law, and that the law officers are only the machinery for its execution, nothing more......M. T.
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