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Author Topic: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners  (Read 30016 times)
FTL_Ian
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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2010, 01:32:51 pm »

Letters have to be signed.  Check the title, BD.  It says it is an editorial.  Jason only posted an excerpt.

http://sentinelsource.com/articles/2010/06/12/opinion/sentinel_editorial/free/id_403001.txt
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SENTINEL EDITORIAL: Recent protests in Keene fail to make much of a mark


“I remember Keene from when I was a child, when there was a Woolworth’s on Main Street,” writes a Sentinel reader in the feedback section of the newspaper’s website. “When I bought my first car, the first thing I did was pick up my best friend and head to Keene. I saw Keene flourish in areas of social growth for many years.” But now, he writes, “Keene has to realize that those days are gone.” Instead residents have to deal with the Free Keene movement. “These new people are activists,” the writer says, “and it’s the role of activists in our society to push limits. I don’t see any disadvantage to setting the limits back.”

We hadn’t thought of Woolworth’s as evidence of social advancement, but the staff was pleasant and it did have a decent lunch counter. The recent libertarian shenanigans downtown might make people nostalgic for just about anything.

It’s not clear whether the “free” in Free Keene is a verb or an adjective — that is to say, whether those who march under the banner are proposing to free the city from some unnamed scourge or simply to celebrate the liberty that’s already here. Either way, the exercise is becoming tedious.

The most recent incidents involved a dozen or so people standing outside Keene Middle School holding signs that read “School sucks project.”

One demonstrator told a Sentinel reporter: “Private education based on performance instead of tests would give students the best chance to learn.” To which a 7th-grader replied: “They haven’t been here and don’t know what they’re talking about.” Good point. If they had been there, they probably would have produced better caliber signs.

“They’re wasting their time,” said an 8th-grader. “No one’s going to listen to them. They’re not even explaining what they’re talking about.”

The sad thing is that they were trying.

The school protests coincide with demonstrations in which women go topless from time to time to make the point that if men can take off their shirts, they should be able to as well. They can in Keene, which has no law against such behavior. Nobody probably thought one was needed until several women provided an anatomy lesson to students on a bus from the aforementioned middle school. Private education based on performance?

There are physical and cultural differences between men and women that become evident when people take off their clothes. Those distinctions may not impress some advocates of gender liberty, but they’ve been around for much of human history. Surely, the Free Keene folks have heard of them. Respecting conventions could be considered a matter of common courtesy unless the demonstrators are trying to make some sort of significant point.

A few of the activists have been contending that women go topless in Europe, as if that explained everything. It is true that women go topless in Europe at some public beaches. But European women do wear shirts most of the time. So there may be a misunderstanding here.

When the libertarian activists announced their move to New Hampshire, and when they began arriving here, there was speculation — mostly from themselves — that they would teach the locals to better appreciate the rich heritage of our liberty. And maybe they will, eventually. For now, however, what we’ve seen is a series of sophomoric actions apparently designed solely to attract attention: people turning Keene District Court into a madhouse; people celebrating the hallucinogenic properties of marijuana in Central Square; people holding up semi-vulgar signs in front of a school; and people taking off their shirts in public.

If that’s the best the community can expect from this social movement, let’s bring back Woolworth’s.

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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2010, 01:33:53 pm »

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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2010, 01:59:28 pm »

Ed,

You are hitting the nail on the head.  But it hurts people to hit them on the head.  In a strange way, you are confronting the folks on this forum in the same way that the Keene @@@@@@ are getting in people's faces.  I have given up trying to convince those folks to be calm, friendly, civil, and persuasive.  The die has been cast, and the Keene project has been forged in such a way that it can never be reformed--just like the corrupt Keene city government.

HOWEVER, I have been hearing (for more than a year now) that other folks in the FSP are REALLY being turned off by this.  Other than this thread, I have not spoken of the Keene activists for about a year, now.  I once had a lot of anger in my heart for these people (that I thought I could keep hidden inside), but I have learned to just allow that conflict on the other side of the state to continue.  I still hear about the Keene activists up in Concord, and the noise does reach the other side of the state, but I've learned to just work to promote freedom and self-sovereignty in spite of it.

Yes, it's an obstacle, but so is the mainstream media, and we've learned to work around that.

Ed, you are 100% right about the "you're not a libertarian" folks.  Very few people are pure enough for the purists, and most Americans value their rights along with many other things.  I let the purists do as they will, and I'm glad that they're in the movement.

Ed, if you will simply take from all of this what you will--as an apiarian--and take what you agree with and discard the rest, then you will serve your country and your community better than you ever could otherwise.  If you become bogged down in pointless debate and arguing, then you'll be no better than the Keeniacs with their loud accusations and fingerpointing.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 05:44:56 pm by Freedomroad » Logged

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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2010, 02:31:23 pm »

Letters have to be signed.  Check the title, BD.  It says it is an editorial.  Jason only posted an excerpt.

I don't know how the Sentinel works. LTEs are usually editorials. And I don't see any author's attribution on there. Seems odd a staff writer wouldn't identify himself.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 02:49:43 pm by B.D. Ross » Logged
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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2010, 02:50:37 pm »

sorry, maxx, it's just amazingly aggravating that there are people this stupid/weird/ascetic. You know, to be stuck on one thing and take it to the extreme, disregarding all logic or common sense. I guess I should know that people can be like that from the left/socialist side of this country, but I guess that kind of makes more sense to me. People everywhere want to believe in some form of Santa Claus, and for leftists, it's government. That kinda makes sense to me both psychologically and in the context that most people have been raised/schooled. But a weird "logical" consistency? Who the hell gets hung up on that? It's so weird. And the basic denial of reality that an adult should not have. Again, for leftists, thinking that government can solve everything and save everyone, that makes sense to me that people could be stuck on that. But the most basic nature of man? Denying that there will always be violent people, who need to be stopped violently (and regardless of what they say, that is what they're doing)? People ought to be more adult than that.

And then on top of that, the majority of libertarians just rationalize the crazies, explain them away. What the hell are they trying to explain away? Why are they trying to defend obvious loons? Are they taking it as an attack on libertarianism in general? Why? One shouldn't be so defensive. If people are calling out your crazies, identify them and make a separation. Don't defend them.

And by the way, it isn't simply a matter of Americans valuing other things than their rights. The simple fact of the matter is that the libertarian version of "rights" so often is anything but. I mean, Jesus Christ, a libertarian on another thread is claiming that you can blockade people in their houses based on property rights. That's ludicrous.
It's that, and also a matter of how to effectively defend rights in the context of our government/law system. Again, libertarians often fail on their prescriptions there.

Any way, the bottom line is as many crazies as there are, even more libertarians are giving their tacit approval by defending them or not making a point of saying they're crazy. How long before someone writes an editorial, or makes a video, denouncing the loonbags? Not just their methods, but their ideas. How long? These people here keep lambasting me, when they could get a lot more done by simply picking up their damn phone and taking a little video. But they don't, and that shows their priorites, motivations, and positions.
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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2010, 03:13:06 pm »

Ed,

I have never heard you make a reference nor critique of polycentric law theory...which is - bottomline - what the Keeniacs are arguing for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycentric_law

Also, the idea that if there is no actual victim - there is no crime committed.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 03:32:53 pm by WendellBerry » Logged
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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2010, 03:18:26 pm »

And then on top of that, the majority of libertarians just rationalize the crazies, explain them away. What the hell are they trying to explain away?

Cite your source.
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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2010, 05:43:20 pm »


Any way, the bottom line is as many crazies as there are, even more libertarians are giving their tacit approval by defending them or not making a point of saying they're crazy. How long before someone writes an editorial, or makes a video, denouncing the loonbags? Not just their methods, but their ideas. How long? These people here keep lambasting me, when they could get a lot more done by simply picking up their damn phone and taking a little video. But they don't, and that shows their priorites, motivations, and positions.

Big assumption.

You may have been including me as a person "lambasting". I admit to being defensive. Certainly I have found fault with some of your posts. I just don't think anything good will come out of calling people crazy, whether or not I might think they are. They are going to keep on doing what they do no matter what you or I think. More people keep joining them, and at some point they will have enough people to get more freedom where they are by their "crazy" tactics. If freedom is what we care about, we should allow even crazy people to be free, as long as they don't aggress against others.

Not calling them crazy = tacit approval
is just your opinion.

Second, I don't have a phone that takes video, and if I did, what would I film in Utah?

My priorities are to get my life to a point where I can move to NH. In the meantime, I post here to try to feel involved in the movement and stay focused on what is going on, since there is nothing liberty-oriented going on here, and the only people even interested I know of are 3 hours away from me. I admit to being somewhat outspoken in my opinions, which generally center around
1. peacefully getting rid of coercive government and
2. thinking people who share this belief should try to get along instead of calling each other names.
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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2010, 06:10:29 pm »

Oops - my apologies - I was responding based on what was said in another thread, without reading this thread first.

So you think everyone who disagrees with Keene activism should post a video saying that? Where would we do that?

I'm not sure, as an advocate of everyone in the liberty movement getting along despite our many differences, that I can do that.

I can definitely oppose anyone who said they want to ban circumcision, but not someone who said they think it's wrong.

I can oppose someone who advocates for pedophilia, drunk driving, or blocking people into their property, but not someone who feels there are better ways to solve the problem than having the government handle it, or that these things should be "legal".

Maybe the people you think should publicly denounce the Keene activists don't want the kind of attention they are getting, and THAT's WHY they're not there. So basically your request for video denouncements constitutes a demand that people do the kind of activism you want them to do instead of what they prefer. The "tacit approval" you speak of is just the free choice of people to seek attention or to quietly work to achieve freedom.

You said you are 90% libertarian. In what areas do you want more freedom? I don't feel comfortable with the tone I have taken with you up till now and would like to be able to speak to areas where we agree - but so far you have only posted about things I disagree with (except the minor point that the Keene activists' topless protest was unwise) so I have been unable to do this.
By the way, I am only this outspoken online, in person I tend to be a very agreeable person. Are you interested in the free state project or have you written off the whole state because of a few people in one town?
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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2010, 06:36:39 pm »

Letters have to be signed.  Check the title, BD.  It says it is an editorial.  Jason only posted an excerpt.

I don't know how the Sentinel works. LTEs are usually editorials. And I don't see any author's attribution on there. Seems odd a staff writer wouldn't identify himself.

Editorials are usually never signed in Newspapers.
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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2010, 06:40:16 pm »

Letters have to be signed.  Check the title, BD.  It says it is an editorial.  Jason only posted an excerpt.

I don't know how the Sentinel works. LTEs are usually editorials. And I don't see any author's attribution on there. Seems odd a staff writer wouldn't identify himself.

Editorials are usually never signed in Newspapers.

I was just getting ready to chime in on this to say the same thing. 

Click on any of the editorials in the left column here: http://www.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.html
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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2010, 07:20:40 pm »

Letters have to be signed.  Check the title, BD.  It says it is an editorial.  Jason only posted an excerpt.

I don't know how the Sentinel works. LTEs are usually editorials. And I don't see any author's attribution on there. Seems odd a staff writer wouldn't identify himself.

Editorials are usually never signed in Newspapers.

I was just getting ready to chime in on this to say the same thing. 

Click on any of the editorials in the left column here: http://www.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.html

I didn't say signed. Ian did. I said attributed. Guess I've never noticed some papers don't do it.
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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2010, 07:39:57 pm »

The sky is falling the sky is falling!

You're doing some thing I don't like. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look other people don't like it too.!!!!!!!!!!!!

I must be right.!!!!




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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2010, 10:28:44 pm »

Though I've argued (on facebook) that Keene-style activism is not as big of a problem as some people make it out to be, I want to make it clear that I'm not very happy with some of the events recently.

The impression I'm under is that most of the main CDers purposefully look for publicity, with the unspoken assumption that it will attract more movers. And that's probably true, and, IMO, that's a completely legitimate motivation.

However, I feel like, with a little thought, it shouldn't be hard to get publicity in ways that aren't as aggravating to local Keeniacs. For example, why not give impassioned speeches at school board meetings instead of bombarding junior high kids with propaganda?

I'm all for getting publicity and stirring up controversy now and then-- there are a lot of potential movers who are excited about this stuff (and, in fact, that's a lot of what led me to move)-- but some of this is just getting silly. I find it difficult to believe that there aren't... less embarrassing... ways of attracting libertarians to NH.
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Re: Keene residents tiring of Free Keeners
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2010, 10:41:51 pm »

Will, I think you should do that - maybe there are people who will be excited by it and move.  Maybe if you start going, you can encourage others to do so.  Take a leadership role in-the-system and see what happens.
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