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Topic: urbanization, city and country attitudes, pop density issues (Read 37012 times)
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Hank
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I notice that Wyoming has the highest percentage of people living in urban clusters. Wyoming's 40% is way ahead of the runner up (Montana at 28%) and leaves DE, ME, and NH way behind. That's also while it is third in percent farm (the Dakotas are first in farm percent  This explains why Wyoming commuting times are so short. People work in their home cities. http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=2485 |
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« Last Edit: July 26, 2003, 06:30:59 pm by Hank »
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Robert H.
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I notice that Wyoming has the highest percentage of people living in urban clusters. Wyoming's 40% is way ahead of the runner up (Montana at 28%) and leaves DE, ME, and NH way behind. That's also while it is third in percent farm (the Dakotas are first in farm percent This explains why Wyoming commuting times are so short. People work in their home cities. http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=2485This is also why I don't buy the idea that campaigning will be more difficult in Wyoming just because it is a geographically large state. Most of us will settle in the more populated areas, which, as you note, have a larger number of people clustered together. Spread out between Cheyenne, Casper and Laramie, we would be able to access the majority of the state's population rather easily, as well as the centers of government, which should be our major concern. |
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Hank
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With local Porcupine chapters in all the larger towns and cities, even the west can be liberated. Don't worry about people out in the wide open spaces or up in the hills. They are already the most "libertarian". Getting them out to vote is the hardest part unless you get 'em riled up about an invasion of Californians or Easterners (because it is happening).
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Robert H.
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Much of what we discuss here in terms of the FSP's future activities, and how our plans might pan out, is theoretical, but we do occasionally see some real life examples played out. One of those debates has concerned whether we should target geographically small states for "ease of campaigning" purposes; another has concerned whether being close to large population centers is a positive or negative factor. One recent article from the New Hampshire Concord Monitor seems to speak to both issues. The Teamsters gathered a large group of Gephardt supporters to a rally in New Hampshire back on August 9th, bussing them in from nearby states. If small land area means easy campaigning for us, it will also mean the same for our opposition, and with large population centers nearby, they'll have plenty of people to draw numbers from (there are more statists than libertarians). This is a real life example of it happening in one of our candidate states: Gephardt fans bused in from all over New England Sunday, August 10, 2003 By MEG HECKMAN Monitor staff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MANCHESTER - The Teamsters threw one great party last night, complete with a massive barbecue, a soundtrack packed with '80s-era get-pumped songs and a fair number of out-of-state guests. About 950 people attended last night's rally to watch the Teamsters endorse Rep. Dick Gephardt in the Democratic primary. Many came by the busload from Massachusetts, Maine and Rhode Island in hopes of helping New Hampshire get psyched about Gephardt. "I think a lot of people in New Hampshire haven't taken a good look at Gephardt," Tom McGarthy shouted over "Eye of the Tiger." McGarthy, a Teamster who lives in Boston, thinks many New Hampshire residents are hung up on either Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry or former Vermont governor Howard Dean. "This is a great way for Gephardt to come to New Hampshire and get the word out," he said, a cloud of smoke from the grills billowing overhead. U.S. Rep. Patrick Kennedy brought a contingent with him from Rhode Island. Before coming to the rally, the crew sent the day waving the Gephardt banner in southern New Hampshire. "Small states need to stick together," he told the crowd before Gephardt's arrival. As the rally drew to a close and the out-of-state visitors headed back to their busses and cars they tossed around their opinions on the event. "It brought attention," said Brian Dunigan, who came from Massachusetts with some of his fellow Teamsters. "It would at least give you a couple of seconds to consider the guy," replied his friend Tom Noyes. "Free food was nice too." Sunday, August 10, 2003 |
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Hank
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The guy who wrote this rant needs to get out of his gosh-dang car and walk a little; otherwise he deserves his traffic jams. Apparently you relish jostling elbow to elbow in crowds or stacked up fourteen deep in lines or being herded like sheep. There really are people who just barely keep from going berzerk in crowded malls, sidewalks, and parks. These are the sore who, upon entering an nearly empty park will gravitate to the open spaces and distant vistas and away from clusters of people. Conversly, there are also those who, upon entering an nearly empty park will gravitate to the nearest cluster of people. None of the other candidate states have anything comparable to big city traffic, excepting possibly a tiny nugget of southeastern NH, and even that doesn't compare to NYC. NYC is abomidable off the end of the scale. Even the cluster jams in and around Nashua or Boise or Sioux Falls drives some of us nuts. |
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Kelton
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These are the old figures, from Political Money Line, http://www.tray.com/cgi-win/indexhtml.exe?MBF=CANDAK - $6.1 mil (95-96 cycle) DE - $8.7 mil (99-00) ID - $7.7 mil (97-98) ME - $11.4 mil (95-96) MT - $10.9 mil (99-00) NH - $8.2 mil (95-96) ND - $4.2 mil (99-00) SD - $13.8 mil (95-96) VT - $4.3 mil (99-00) WY - $4.7 mil (95-96) Some states increased after the 01-02 election cycle. I do think NH's current number probably overstates the spending we'd normally be facing there, but in general, I wholeheartedly agree with keeping only the *highest* figure in recent elections, rather than *averaging* all elections. Most election cycles do not feature a close election; therefore, fundraising and spending are low. Cycles with tight, important elections will see an explosion of spending, and these are the elections when we see what the political establishment can throw at us if they *really* feel threatened. I decided to look at these numbers in a different way and plugged them into : Eligible voter population (2000) Wyoming - 364,909
Alaska - 436,215
Vermont - 461,304
North Dakota - 481,351
South Dakota - 552,195
Delaware - 589,013
Montana -672,133
Idaho - 924,923
New Hampshire - 926,224
Maine - 973,685 The result, I found quite surprising, in terms of dollar$ per potential voter in campaign expenditures:
ID 8.32
ND 8.73
NH 8.85
VT 9.32
ME 11.71
AK 13.98
DE 14.77
MT 16.22
WY 16.72
SD 24.99
Wow! big differences in these states! Of course, these figures have been presented in terms of $/Porcupine and other ways, but I find this insightful. And of course, these figures are old, the 2002 cycle would show yet another different story. Please, someone find an error with the way that I did this. Could this be an accurate description of how things really are? Is this a good way to look at this? Criticisms please. |
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. . .the foundations of our national policy should be laid in private morality. If individuals be not influenced by moral principles, it is in vain to look for public virtue --The U.S. Senate's reply to George Washington's first inaugural address
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anarchicluv
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If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood.
~Henry David Thoreau
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anarchicluv
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*bump*
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If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood.
~Henry David Thoreau
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Hank
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From Zack: I doubt that there's such a Rule, but Hank has a good point. Without a disclaimer, you might get an argument from someone who actually agrees with your own view. Even on the Free Republic Forum which generally requires all threads to start with some article, the initiating poster posts some comment in agreement or disagreement. The latter is needed to prevent the other forum members for climbing all over them for "apparently" agreeing with the article simply by posting it. From Bob: I've posted a few where I agree in part and disagree in part, without mentioning this. My view was to add an article to help in some way. Bob, in many forums that I've frequented over the years, if you don't mention your relationship to the article, people will assume you agree with it. Why would you post it if otherwise? Make it explicit your agreement or neutrality, but don't expect people to respect neutrality. |
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Bonner County
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Anyone remember "THE MAP"?You might what to take another look at it before you vote.
NH is surounded.
Back when I studying tactics in the army the rational response would be to pull out as many of your troops as possible before they're overwhelmed.The stupid plan would to be to send in reinforcements to to help a doomed contingent because you would sacrifice to many too save too few.
How many of you want to sacrifice the rest of your productive years trying to save a dying populace.
It would be much wiser to evacuate and create a home for them behind enemy lines.
In case you forgot here is a site with the map
democraticunderground.com/articles/01/08/pl27_map
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« Last Edit: September 03, 2003, 11:12:56 pm by Bonner County »
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Remember children,after you pull the pin,Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend.
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jgmaynard
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The argument doesn't hold up to the lessons of history. New Hampshire has held off statists for 225 years, and we have no intention of letting them win now. In fact, support for new or raised taxes in NH has dropped 65% in the last 27 years. More info and references are at http://www.freestatenh.com/SAQ.html#massJM |
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The Light of Alexandria By James Maynard A history of the first 1,000 years of science, and how it changed the ancient world, and our world today. http://www.lightofalexandria.com
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George Phillies
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No matter where you go (except Alaska, which is between Russia and Canada) you are going to be substantially surrounded by states with large Democratic-Republican majorities, states loaded with the two gun-grabber parties, homophobic bigots and antiabortionists who want their personal opinions made into law, drug warriors, people who have replaced tax and spend with spend and spend and see half-trillion dollar deficits as real yawners.... The Red and the Blue symbolize the two statist parties, each of which have some good people and some profreedom ideas, but neither of which is any better than the other, and both of which are poisonous for America.
The objective of the Free State Project is to show that our ideas work, their ideas do not, and provide an example of the real choice. And having provided that example, we advance forward to convert the good people of neighboring (depending on which state wins) Maryland , Nevada, Utah, New York, and so forth that our ideas will work in their state too.
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Hank
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I see that South Dakota doesn't make it to the final cut.
That's because Sioux Falls is too darn big and dominant.
Thank gosh we have Rapid City or the western half would be sunk.
At least North Dakota has several spread out population centers.
Same for Montana but, my gosh, they are so, so spread out.
No doubt in Idaho what Boise wants, Boise gets.
Same in Alaska with Anchorage.
The cluster in southern New Hampshire is just one large metro area which orders the rest of the state around with its overwhelming power in the state legislature. The reps from Coos county may as well not bother driving down to Concord.
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Hank
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And another thing.
Cities may be a necessary evil, but with mail order and internet they can be kept hundreds of miles away. Far enough to go to when we have to but far enough to keep the hoards away most of the time. It's terrible though when they can drive 80mph and be in the hills and build a second home AND then start changing the local laws by showing up at meetings and making phone calls. More building codes. More laws. More traffic.
Dang it!
You can stay in your cities.
Leave us alone.
And don't worry.
I won't be coming to visit.
I'd go nuts.
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Karl
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And another thing.
Cities may be a necessary evil, but with mail order and internet they can be kept hundreds of miles away. Far enough to go to when we have to but far enough to keep the hoards away most of the time. It's terrible though when they can drive 80mph and be in the hills and build a second home AND then start changing the local laws by showing up at meetings and making phone calls. More building codes. More laws. More traffic.
Dang it!
You can stay in your cities.
Leave us alone.
And don't worry.
I won't be coming to visit.
I'd go nuts.
Actually, Hank, the faux rural lifestyle you promote is far more likely to cause traffic, and the roads needed to get everywhere are paid from the public dole. In cities, walking, biking and using motor services (bus, train, taxi) are more efficient than the automobile dependant world you inhabit. I'll work to end subsidizing your faux rural lifestyle in the Free State. Libertarian policies, thus, will implicitly favor cities as centers of commerce and living. If you can satisfactorily sustain your lifestyle without highway subsidies, then ultimately this will be good for you, since the cities will stay put. Regardless, don't be surprised if the city appears near you one day. But I expect you to drop all pretense of libertarianism then and invoke your own Carbon County-style zoning. So long as its favorable to you, what the hell, right? |
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