Free State Project Forum
269088 Posts in 21911 Topics by 36098 Members / Latest Member: mani140424
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 23, 2014, 09:29:24 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search

Join the FSP

POSTING GUIDELINES and ADVICE FOR NEW MEMBERS

NOTICE: The forum will be down for maintenance beginning at 7PM (NH time) this evening. It should be up again by 9PM. Please forgive the inconvenience and feel free to e-mail arick@freestateproject.org if you have any questions or support requests.

+  Free State Project Forum
|-+  FSP -- General Discussion
| |-+  General FSP Discussion
| | |-+  "Sovereign" movement
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2  Go Down Print
Author Topic: "Sovereign" movement  (Read 8919 times)
givemeliberty
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


Location: California Republic


WWW

Ignore
"Sovereign" movement
« on: October 25, 2008, 08:30:54 pm »

Does anybody know about the sovereign citizen movement?
Logged

When only attorneys can understand the codes, statutes, and regulations (so-called laws), then only attorneys should be required to obey them." -- Jack Slevkoff


American Governance by Jack Slevkoff
www.usavsus.info
Michael J Shaffer
FSP Participant
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 109




Ignore
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2008, 08:51:02 pm »

Sovereign Citizen Movement Info...

http://definitions.uslegal.com/s/sovereign-citizen/

and according to the Anti Defamation League...
http://www.adl.org/Learn/ext_us/SCM.asp?xpicked=4&item=20

and finally.. a discussion about encounters with Sovereign Citizens by Lawmen (I think!?)
http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59996

   Michael
Logged

"Be friendly to liberty, neutral to all else."--A Wise Lady
J’raxis 270145
First 1000
FSP Participant
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1955


Pervert android


WWW

Ignore
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2008, 09:06:10 pm »

and according to the Anti Defamation League...
http://www.adl.org/Learn/ext_us/SCM.asp?xpicked=4&item=20

Same smear job that statist apologists performed on the “right-wing militias” back in the 1990s. Roll Eyes
Logged


NH Tea PartyNHLANH-CLOGMFPCURSOR

Escaped from MA, 2007-06-30
givemeliberty
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


Location: California Republic


WWW

Ignore
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008, 01:18:46 am »

I have heard some pretty good things about Sovereigns, that, if execute correctly, their ideologies are held up in court. There have even been some Free-Staters who do not want their car registered to the government.
Logged

When only attorneys can understand the codes, statutes, and regulations (so-called laws), then only attorneys should be required to obey them." -- Jack Slevkoff


American Governance by Jack Slevkoff
www.usavsus.info
J’raxis 270145
First 1000
FSP Participant
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1955


Pervert android


WWW

Ignore
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2008, 07:44:55 am »

I have heard some pretty good things about Sovereigns, that, if execute correctly, their ideologies are held up in court.

I’ve heard of the tactics used in government courts with some success, although I think it’s only because the courts haven’t gotten used to dealing with the arguments yet. Once the judges get wise to it, they’ll just declare all such arguments “frivolous” and refuse to allow them to be made. (The same has already happened with most tax-protester arguments: Why would they allow people to make arguments in their courts that might actually work?)
Logged


NH Tea PartyNHLANH-CLOGMFPCURSOR

Escaped from MA, 2007-06-30
givemeliberty
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


Location: California Republic


WWW

Ignore
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2008, 06:08:03 pm »

Living as a Sovereign basically consists of:


  • not entering any contracts with the government
  • not offending anyone


I suggest that every Free-stater (libertarian for that matter) visit www.usavsus.info
Logged

When only attorneys can understand the codes, statutes, and regulations (so-called laws), then only attorneys should be required to obey them." -- Jack Slevkoff


American Governance by Jack Slevkoff
www.usavsus.info
JasonPSorens
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5141


Neohantonum liberissimum erit.


WWW
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2008, 06:15:46 pm »

I view the "sovereign citizen"/"patriot" movement as a scam, but YMMV.
Logged

"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism
givemeliberty
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


Location: California Republic


WWW

Ignore
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2008, 06:22:36 pm »

I view the "sovereign citizen"/"patriot" movement as a scam...

How so?

I disagree, there may some scams out there but it is all about freeing yourself from the government and becoming a "Sovereign". Most of the movement is nonprofit.

There is one Free-staters quest to exercise her right to travel, as documented by the ridley report: http://ridleyreport.com/video/2008/oct/nh_native_joins_right_travel_revolution


Is there any Sovereigns in this forum?



www.usavsus.info www.usavsus.info www.usavsus.info www.usavsus.info


www.usavsus.info
www.usavsus.info
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 06:33:00 pm by freudig_siegen » Logged

When only attorneys can understand the codes, statutes, and regulations (so-called laws), then only attorneys should be required to obey them." -- Jack Slevkoff


American Governance by Jack Slevkoff
www.usavsus.info
Ferg
FSP Participant
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 155


WWW

Ignore
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2008, 06:30:29 pm »

Freudig, I've only come across this sovereign movement over the past few months, and when I'm done with university at the end of this week, I'm going to devote plenty of time to researching this issue in more detail.

However, as much I would love to be a sovereign and only restrained by common law, I see this as a failing plan in the long-term. And this is why: once you leave government jurisdiction, you are powerless to change those very laws that everyone else is still governed by, and you have to live in hope that this government entity will still respect legal precedent and not infringe upon you - doubtful, to say the least.

Do you really believe that the US government is going to respect common law and not claim jurisdiction over you? The people who rule the US are ruthless - politics is a dirty game - and they are not going to care whether you are right on strictly legal grounds. They appoint the judges. They write the legislation. They have the bigger guns, and they're not afraid to use them - need I say Ruby Ridge and Waco. Look at Ed Brown - who may have known common law inside and out - and all the stories of the individuals and groups who have attempted to take the sovereign route. Most of them are either in jail or have been killed in violent confrontations.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 06:33:16 pm by Ferg » Logged
givemeliberty
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


Location: California Republic


WWW

Ignore
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2008, 07:00:00 pm »

Logged

When only attorneys can understand the codes, statutes, and regulations (so-called laws), then only attorneys should be required to obey them." -- Jack Slevkoff


American Governance by Jack Slevkoff
www.usavsus.info
JasonPSorens
Administrator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5141


Neohantonum liberissimum erit.


WWW
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2008, 09:23:48 pm »

I view the "sovereign citizen"/"patriot" movement as a scam...

How so?

I disagree, there may some scams out there but it is all about freeing yourself from the government and becoming a "Sovereign". Most of the movement is nonprofit.

A lot of the people pushing it have something like 20 self-published books all about how you can say magic words in a courtroom to make the government stop harassing you (just watch out for the gold-fringed admiralty flags!). I'm sure there are some people who sincerely believe this stuff, but it's all crazy talk to me.  Undecided
Logged

"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism
B.D. Ross
Director of Development
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4805



WWW
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2008, 10:33:33 pm »

I view the "sovereign citizen"/"patriot" movement as a scam...

How so?

I disagree, there may some scams out there but it is all about freeing yourself from the government and becoming a "Sovereign". Most of the movement is nonprofit.

A lot of the people pushing it have something like 20 self-published books all about how you can say magic words in a courtroom to make the government stop harassing you (just watch out for the gold-fringed admiralty flags!). I'm sure there are some people who sincerely believe this stuff, but it's all crazy talk to me.  Undecided

We have a rather large problem with the "Sovereignty" movement here in Maryland among indigent criminal defendants looking for a last ditch effort. It's a suicide bullet. The self-published books are ridiculously... ridiculous. Based on very crude understandings of both English common law, U.S. law generally, and the history and structure of U.S. and state governments.

Like the "How to Scam the IRS" books, it's just another cheap money-making ploy preying on individuals looking for "the easy way" out. Here in the U.S., "non-profit" does not mean they don't make money.
Logged
J’raxis 270145
First 1000
FSP Participant
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1955


Pervert android


WWW

Ignore
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2008, 10:39:14 pm »

I view the "sovereign citizen"/"patriot" movement as a scam...

How so?

I disagree, there may some scams out there but it is all about freeing yourself from the government and becoming a "Sovereign". Most of the movement is nonprofit.

A lot of the people pushing it have something like 20 self-published books all about how you can say magic words in a courtroom to make the government stop harassing you (just watch out for the gold-fringed admiralty flags!). I'm sure there are some people who sincerely believe this stuff, but it's all crazy talk to me.  Undecided

We have a rather large problem with the "Sovereignty" movement here in Maryland among indigent criminal defendants looking for a last ditch effort. It's a suicide bullet. The self-published books are ridiculously... ridiculous. Based on very crude understandings of both English common law, U.S. law generally, and the history and structure of U.S. and state governments.

Like the "How to Scam the IRS" books, it's just another cheap money-making ploy preying on individuals looking for "the easy way" out. Here in the U.S., "non-profit" does not mean they don't make money.

Yeah, I would automatically mistrust information being presented to me by someone who was also trying to sell me more info, but there are some people who have had some success with these tactics here and elsewhere, and they don’t stand to gain financially by spreading such info. MTPorcupine3 talks about the self-sovereignty stuff a lot, and SamIam has been doing it in Texas courts for a while. Ian of Free Talk Live has been getting into using the UCC conspiracy theories, and similar, in his court dealings, too.

It may or may not be true, but if it screws up their process and gets people off (like I said, before the courts start declaring the arguments automatically “frivolous”), then good for it.
Logged


NH Tea PartyNHLANH-CLOGMFPCURSOR

Escaped from MA, 2007-06-30
givemeliberty
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


Location: California Republic


WWW

Ignore
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2008, 10:50:29 pm »

Me personally, I would probably not pay money for something like that. The information that I have was free and I know people who have avoided court by acting properly.
Logged

When only attorneys can understand the codes, statutes, and regulations (so-called laws), then only attorneys should be required to obey them." -- Jack Slevkoff


American Governance by Jack Slevkoff
www.usavsus.info
B.D. Ross
Director of Development
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4805



WWW
Re: "Sovereign" movement
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2008, 11:16:57 pm »

Ian of Free Talk Live has been getting into using the UCC conspiracy theories, and similar, in his court dealings, too.

[Pinches forehead, shakes head in disapproval]
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!