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Topic: My New Signature (Read 4791 times)
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Old Nick
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I would be interested in learning just how successful the Libertarian Party has been even just as an ideologically pure education vehicle. I fail to see how reforming it to actually compete could make it WORSE than it already is.
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God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then He instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East."
-- George W. Bush to Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, July 2003
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freedom's ideologue
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I fail to see how reforming it to actually compete could make it WORSE than it already is. Pipe dream. As I explained already, the Libertarian party will not win elections, regardless of what the platform is because of the strongly entrenched two party system. The rare exception might be a billionaire or a famous person. But these are the exceptions that prove the rule. But by diluting it, you end up advocating something that isn't Libertarian. It's something else. So you end up destroying your educational purpose. |
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We've made too many compromises already; too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard
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Old Nick
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Fair point. But again, how successful truly has the LP been at education? From the looks of it the LP has proven itself a miserable failure. It pains me to say that, but I can come to no other conclusion than that. Prove me wrong.
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God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then He instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East."
-- George W. Bush to Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, July 2003
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JonM
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A well financed INTERESTING 3rd party candidate can win. Witness Jessee Ventura. Ross Perot came across as a lunatic and got 19% of the vote. Imagine if he had seemed sensible. Either way, building the LP into a party that can be competitive in elections is a long hard road. Whether or not people involved in the FSP seek to walk that road as well is up to them. Bringing the existing two parties back to the planks they originally stood for may not be an easy road either. Look around where you live. There are two basic types of people who get involved in politics. Those who want to give back to their community, and those who want to get something out of their community. MA is filled with the later, and I'm not sure there are too many of the former around here. There are statewide offices and congressmen who run unopposed.
New Hampshire is at a balance. A strong 3rd party could be a spoiler factor there, as was the Libertarian in Montana. If the 3% of the votes Jones got instead went to the "less of two evils" the Republicans might well still control the Senate. With enough activists, all roads can be traveled at the same time. If you haven't yet signed up, SIGN UP. If you haven't signed the First 1000, do so! Move to where your efforts will be most effective, move to New Hampshire as soon as you can!.
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Denis Goddard
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Ross Perot came across as a lunatic
... there's a simple reason for that, you know  |
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RalphBorsodi
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New Hampshire is at a balance. A strong 3rd party could be a spoiler factor there, as was the Libertarian in Montana. If the 3% of the votes Jones got instead went to the "less of two evils" the Republicans might well still control the Senate. the success or failure of 3rd party candidates is solely determined by the relative strength or weakness of lesser evil voting sentiment. if people believe there is not a dimes worth of difference between the D & R candidates then people will take a chance on a 3rd party or if people believe that the 3rd party candidate pulls equally from left or right then the same dynamic occurs. it speaks volumes though about most "libertarians" that they believe the Republican Party is the lesser-evil choice because when push comes to shove economic liberty takes precedence over civil liberty in their mind...this is why neither the Libertarian Party or Green Party will ever be successful - they both try to canibalize the party their supposed supporters believe is the lesser evil. their path to "success" can't stand up to logically scrutiny. |
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Rocketman
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if people believe there is not a dimes worth of difference between the D & R candidates then people will take a chance on a 3rd party or if people believe that the 3rd party candidate pulls equally from left or right then the same dynamic occurs. Ralph, I've heard you say this (the bold part) before. Can you substantiate that claim? My experience is that if a 3rd party or independent candidate is perceived to be pulling support from both sides, both bases go into "don't waste your vote!" mode and the electorate repolarizes around the D and R by Election Day. it speaks volumes though about most "libertarians" that they believe the Republican Party is the lesser-evil choice because when push comes to shove economic liberty takes precedence over civil liberty in their mind...this is why neither the Libertarian Party or Green Party will ever be successful - they both try to canibalize the party their supposed supporters believe is the lesser evil.
Here you go being right again... Cobb and Badnarik tried to get past this and work together on their common goal to be included in the process -- I'll bet Cobb caught as much crap over it from Greens as Michael (I know) did from LP'ers. |
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5/13/06: I'M HOME!!!!!!!!! #401!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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lloydbob1
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I'm thinking that this would have been a good year for the CT LP to have run a candidate for senate against Joe, Ned and whats his name.
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freedom's ideologue
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Fair point. But again, how successful truly has the LP been at education? I would say it has been a dismal failure at education. The party has the right message, but doesn't communicate it effectively. The solution is to change *how* you spread your message. It IS NOT to change your message. |
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We've made too many compromises already; too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard
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RalphBorsodi
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My experience is that if a 3rd party or independent candidate is perceived to be pulling support from both sides, both bases go into "don't waste your vote!" mode and the electorate repolarizes around the D and R by Election Day.
"don't waste your vote" is just a euphemism for lesser evil voting by the party member who believes you wasted vote will hurt their candidate... if it could be shown that the candidate will pull equally from both sides (R & D) then why would a partisan care because the votes casts will just cancel each other out and not effect the race outcome at all... |
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