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Topic: Question for Mormons (Read 33282 times)
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Bazil
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I don't see anywhere in there where he calls for a theocracy. Arguably the Catholic church is "bigger" (over a billion members) and has larger influence (members in almost every government) than the US government and it's a church. If you assume that most Americans are Christians and you believe that government should be minimal then I would expect a few churches in the US to be more "important" than the government. It in no way means you would have a theocracy. The government still sets the rules, and people have freedom of religion or lack there of. |
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"If it ain't broke, fix it till it is!"- The government | "Politicians are like diapers, they need to be changed often, and for the same reasons!" - a friend
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Bazil
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DOMA?
Influence and authoritative power are different.
and in a free society a church has no authoritative power. All I'm saying is just because Ron Paul thinks secularists are attacking Christianity and trying to diminish the Christian roots of America doesn't mean he's a theocrat. |
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"If it ain't broke, fix it till it is!"- The government | "Politicians are like diapers, they need to be changed often, and for the same reasons!" - a friend
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Ed
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this is definitely happening to some extent
I remember a few years back reading about how the ACLU was suing against a Christian group trying to use a town square to put up some Christmas decorations, and at the very same time in another state they were arguing the exact opposite stance, but in favor of Jews and putting up a menorah. I guess such two-facedness is supposed to be OK because Judaism doesn't have a history of white male anglo saxon opressors blah blah blah
Or just listen to Bill Maher a little bit and you can see it
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John Edward Mercier
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No, the Church doesn't have authoritative power...
Which I can guarantee that Ron Paul and other Protestants would not support. And he's not exactly worried about Christianity, only his version of it.
The ACLU takes what appears to be opposing positions, because it isn't one big group... and the circumstances are not the same.
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« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 10:02:27 pm by John Edward Mercier »
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Ed
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I remember the stories had the exact same situations - I remember reading the details
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John Edward Mercier
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Are you sure? Because very small variances can lead to different debate points. Much of it having to do with the client.
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10stateswithnh
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Another Mormon quote: from Ether chapter 8 in the Book of Mormon - this is written by Moroni the last author, who has written about his own people's destruction in civil war and is about to describe the similar destruction of an earlier people nearby, and what caused both destructions. I take the Gentiles of his warning to be the people of modern times, including in the US.
Basically, he's saying that we can't let secret power-seeking groups take over our government (and obviously if they did it doesn't mean we now have to do what they say). He is also prophesying that there will be a time when this will be an issue for the people who receive this book (he wrote it about 400 AD, the book was first published in 1830 in western New York). Notice he said when, not if, in verse 24.
22 And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the blood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for vengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.
23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.
24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.
25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.
26 Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have no power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be persuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved.
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Bryce in Rochester
States I have lived in:
PA, DE, WA, ME, SC, NY, GA, UT, CO, NH as of Sep 2011!
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10stateswithnh
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Below I quote what is probably the most thorough treatment on government in LDS scripture.
Though a Mormon, I'm not sure I agree with the first verse. But it seems to this declaration is less authoritative than something claimed to be revealed by God. This is just a declaration of beliefs adopted by unanimous consent of all the LDS (Mormon) elders present at a church meeting in 1835. Also they had to deal with the problem of slavery as it was then legal, and again on that one I disagree. In most other instances they were very strongly anti-slavery. I take this one, not as pro-slavery, but rather anti- civil disobedience.
In my opinion most Mormons are not aware that the conditions of good government in verse 5 no longer hold true and therefore the statements of this document about obeying the government do not apply. I think Glenn Beck is doing a good job of showing Mormons that this is true (he is very popular here in Utah). Even though I would not consider him a libertarian, he is definitely libertarian-leaning and can lead a lot of people to liberty. I agree that Mormons are a sleeping giant in the cause of liberty, I only wish I knew what to do to get them to wake up.
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 134
A declaration of belief regarding governments and laws in general, adopted by unanimous vote at a general assembly of the Church held at Kirtland, Ohio, August 17, 1835. HC 2: 247–249. The occasion was a meeting of Church leaders, brought together to consider the proposed contents of the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. At that time this declaration was given the following preamble: “That our belief with regard to earthly governments and laws in general may not be misinterpreted nor misunderstood, we have thought proper to present at the close of this volume our opinion concerning the same.”
1–4, Governments should preserve freedom of conscience and worship; 5–8, All men should uphold their governments, and owe respect and deference to the law; 9–10, Religious societies should not exercise civil powers; 11–12, Men are justified in defending themselves and their property.
1 We believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society.
2 We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.
3 We believe that all governments necessarily require civil officers and magistrates to enforce the laws of the same; and that such as will administer the law in equity and justice should be sought for and upheld by the voice of the people if a republic, or the will of the sovereign.
4 We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.
5 We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.
6 We believe that every man should be honored in his station, rulers and magistrates as such, being placed for the protection of the innocent and the punishment of the guilty; and that to the laws all men show respect and deference, as without them peace and harmony would be supplanted by anarchy and terror; human laws being instituted for the express purpose of regulating our interests as individuals and nations, between man and man; and divine laws given of heaven, prescribing rules on spiritual concerns, for faith and worship, both to be answered by man to his Maker.
7 We believe that rulers, states, and governments have a right, and are bound to enact laws for the protection of all citizens in the free exercise of their religious belief; but we do not believe that they have a right in justice to deprive citizens of this privilege, or proscribe them in their opinions, so long as a regard and reverence are shown to the laws and such religious opinions do not justify sedition nor conspiracy.
8 We believe that the commission of crime should be punished according to the nature of the offense; that murder, treason, robbery, theft, and the breach of the general peace, in all respects, should be punished according to their criminality and their tendency to evil among men, by the laws of that government in which the offense is committed; and for the public peace and tranquility all men should step forward and use their ability in bringing offenders against good laws to punishment.
9 We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.
10 We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship.
11 We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded.
12 We believe it just to preach the gospel to the nations of the earth, and warn the righteous to save themselves from the corruption of the world; but we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude.
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Bryce in Rochester
States I have lived in:
PA, DE, WA, ME, SC, NY, GA, UT, CO, NH as of Sep 2011!
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10stateswithnh
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Just because Glenn Beck wants religion to have more influence, does not mean he is a theocrat. See verses 9 and 10 of my previous post, Doctrine and Covenants section 134. It specifically forbids a religion from doing more to someone to punish them than excommunicate them. Verse 9 forbids a religion from controlling the government. Some people think the LDS church controls the government in Utah, but this is not true. LDS beliefs have a strong influence (because 70% of the population shares the same religion this is to be expected) but the church does not give any political directives unless it feels the matter is an important moral issue, and some such as myself choose to disregard these because they disagree politically. The only example I know of where someone was excommunicated for disagreeing, she spent a lot of time and was very vocal about criticizing the Church. However, they do advocate for people to get involved in voting and to choose good candidates. Also the idea some people promote that the LDS church was murdering dissidents back in the 1800's is a big myth. http://en.fairmormon.org/Church_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Blood_atonementThe only theocracy I can conceive of a Mormon wanting is one in which God himself rules, not through supposed intermediaries. And this would only be in a future world in which he has revealed himself to everyone and everyone agrees he should be in charge. The Colorado City group are FLDS. They are the ones who tell teenage girls who to marry, and still practice polygamy. This is not the case with the large Salt Lake City church. I haven't heard that the FLDS call themselves Mormons, but generally this term only means the SLC church. |
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Bryce in Rochester
States I have lived in:
PA, DE, WA, ME, SC, NY, GA, UT, CO, NH as of Sep 2011!
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10stateswithnh
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Did you hear him say that?
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Bryce in Rochester
States I have lived in:
PA, DE, WA, ME, SC, NY, GA, UT, CO, NH as of Sep 2011!
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Bazil
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Glen Beck wants morality legislated. Its that simple.
He has specifically denounced doing that. That is what he calls Manifest Destiny, which he says is the belief that the leaders believe they are doing God's work, but he does believe is that religious people would be good leaders. He believes in what he calls Divine Providence, which he believes is God inspiring people, but not legislating God's will. His examples are the founders who created a free society that allowed all religions yet were still very Christian. His example of Manifest Destiny was Andrew Jackson who uprooted the "pagan" Native Americans so the US could expand. |
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"If it ain't broke, fix it till it is!"- The government | "Politicians are like diapers, they need to be changed often, and for the same reasons!" - a friend
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John Edward Mercier
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So Americans were led by the 'hand of God' to lure French defenses away from their women and children, so the American may slaughter them and take the land they occupied?
Or Americans were led by the 'hand of God' to openly lie and decieve allies with false treaties that they never intended to keep?
Or some 'noble' Americans were led by the 'hand of God' to deceive their fellow Americans into risking their lives in a revolt, then upon success decreeing them under the same conditions that led to the revolt trying to steal their farms?
Beck doesn't know what he means. The US was never under Divine Providence.
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