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Author Topic: Debate about Free West movements  (Read 45509 times)
Boston T. Party
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Debate about Free West movements
« on: September 16, 2005, 11:31:56 am »

Greetings all,

Since my name and the FSW has come up a few times in this thread, and since the
actions of the FSP reflect upon the free state movement as a whole (of which the
Free State Wyoming is a significant part), it is time for me to offer some comments here.

Friday wrote:

Quote
Anyway,  to face the present situation realistically: the Free State Wyoming project appears to be going nowhere fast. After over a year, it has a mere 30-something people on its discussion list; I don't know how many of that number actually have/will move to Wyoming.
Friday, if you don't know the facts, then feel free to discuss another subject. 
We've about 250 discussion list members, not "30-something."  About
40 registered for the 2nd Annual Free State Wyoming Jamboree.  And
we've property owners and residents in all three of our initial counties,
as well as throughout the rest of Wyoming (the entire state has been
opened up for new members)

I consider all this very satisfying considering that the FSW is a very young
organization (founded by a person who had hardly any time to put into it)
which is competing for market share against a much larger org which has
enjoyed virtually all of the free state media attention since 2004. 

Number to numbers, the FSP is much larger than the FSW. 
But compare percentages, and the FSW shines quite brighter.
(I.e., much more than 1.5% of our members have already moved to Wyoming.)

FSWers are moving to Wyoming irrespective of any numerical goal or
date, and many of them relocated to one of just three counties.  (The
$25 requested donation did not seem any obstacle, either...)  I find their
resolve and proven action most significant.  Perhaps, Friday, you might as well.

The FSW is growing, and its people are quite dedicated.
If you must continue commenting on the FSW, please at least get that part right.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

I've read Jason's "ideas" he will propose to your Board, and am saddened that not a
word was mentioned concerning the FSP's original plan to "fold" (their words, not
mine) if 20k is not reached by the September 2006 deadline. 

The free state movement is a market of sorts, with two primary contenders for relocators. 
Certainly many free staters prefer the East, and New Hampshire.  The FSP should continue
to serve such folks, though under a different strategy of trying to attract 20k by next year
(or perhaps any year).  What should "fold" come next September is the unilateral moral
claim by the FSP on any signer who deems their agreement nullified by the deadline failure
and thus wishes to look elsewhere. 

However, given that the FSP will not achieve its 20k for some 20 odd years, and given that
a second free state organization offers a Western alternative, it is time to be realistic.  The
FSP is not the only game in town, the devout wishes of some notwithstanding. 

Regarding the "come on out anyway because just 2,000 of us will make a difference"
sales pitch, consider what you are implicitly arguing.  If 2,000 free staters can make a
difference in a state of 1,200,000 people, then imagine what those 2,000 could accomplish
in Wyoming with just 40% of NH's population. 

Along these lines, I view with bitter amusement Jason's "subsequent research" that
political change in NH can be accomplished by as few as 8,000.  A pity that such "subsequent
research" was not available to us all back in 2003, as our 5,500 members then were
(by Jason's new ratio) more than ample to politically control Wyoming at once. 

In short, I'm not buying it.  It is contortionist, self-serving reasoning bordering on the disingenuous.
Quit backpedaling on your numbers needed, and on the significance of the 9/2006 deadline.

I've nothing personal against FSP members who chose New Hampshire.  The West and
Wyoming is not for everybody.  But neither is the East and NH.  Speaking for myself, I would
be happy to join with the FSP in marketing the free state concept, but only if the FSP will
cease ignoring its own past FAQ verbiage and give us Westerners and the FSW our due.

Come next September, the FSP will lose many members, many of them for Wyoming.
While that is inevitable, rancor is not.  We are all free staters.

Shortly after the 2003 vote I offered to work with the FSP on mutual matters.
That offer still stands.

Best wishes to all,
Boston T. Party

www.freestatewyoming.org
www.javelinpress.com



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Russell Kanning
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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2005, 11:52:30 am »

Interesting .... I have tried to keep up with the western discussion groups ... they are quite busy.
How many people, would you say, have moved to WY?
I like the idea of 2 states making a mad rush to freedom. Cheesy
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Friday
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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2005, 12:37:35 pm »


Friday wrote:

Quote
Anyway,  to face the present situation realistically: the Free State Wyoming project appears to be going nowhere fast. After over a year, it has a mere 30-something people on its discussion list; I don't know how many of that number actually have/will move to Wyoming.
Friday, if you don't know the facts, then feel free to discuss another subject. 
We've about 250 discussion list members, not "30-something." 


Boston,

It's unfortunate that out of all the people who have posted extremely antagonistically about the FSW on this forum, and harangued any present or former FSP members who may move to Wyoming, you chose to address your remarks to me. If you had taken the time to read this whole thread carefully, you would have seen that I have consistently gone on the record as being supportive of the FSW, of wishing it success, and of bearing no ill will to any liberty lovers who prefer Wyoming to New Hampshire.

Be that as it may... I stand by my statement that you have 30-something people on your discussion list.  I was not referring to the list that's for anyone who is even "thinking about" moving to Wyoming. I'm talking about this one here, to which there is a link on the Free State Wyoming FAQ http://www.freestatewyoming.org/free-state-wyoming-faq.html#more , "Group for those who already live in Wyoming or who will be there by the end of 2006":  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FSW2006/  . As I write this, there are exactly 31 people on that list. I notice that the other list, for those committed to moving by 2010, has been deactivated.
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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2005, 12:45:13 pm »


The FSW is growing, and its people are quite dedicated.
If you must continue commenting on the FSW, please at least get that part right.


No need to worry, Boston: I have no intention of ever mentioning your organization again.  Smiley
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Zxcv
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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2005, 12:50:32 pm »

Some around here may remember me; I did a lot of research for FSP before the state selection (including the "big spreadsheet"). I thought I'd comment since Boston has. My family is already partially established in Wyoming.

To me it is a good thing that Jason et. al. are responding to reality - that of not meeting the deadline (or "deadline" if you prefer) for recruitment in time. There is no escaping that.

The reasonable thing to do would be to:

1) Admit you're not gonna make the deadline, as an organization. (already pretty much done)
2) Admit current members who joined under the old guidelines are off the hook, or at least will be when Sept 2006 rolls around (still in denial AFAIK)
3) Re-organize under more realistic guidelines as the NH contingent of the free state movement (in progress, although there is some denial here too, as in "FSP *is* the free state movement.")

On #2, it really does not matter (for purposes of membership count anyway) whether the FSP board thinks those early members are off the hook, or not. All that matters is what those members think about it. My guess is, the vast majority will consider themselves to be free of the original commitment. If you want to retain them, the best way to do that is deal honestly with them; to say, "Yes, we realize you're off the hook now, but we really want you to stay." You won't be able to bully them.

Of course, Free State Wyoming will be vying for them as well. Nothing like good old competition in the free market, eh? Smiley

On #3, it would help credibility to admit you are not the only game in town. That is, if you care about credibility. Having admitted that, there is nothing wrong with competing with other free state movements for recruits.

That's all I have to say about it.

Oh, BTW Friday, it is a mistake to conclude that only the 2006 list are going to Wyoming. Clearly there are lots of people not on that list who intend to move there; I'm one of them. After all, even FSP gave their members 5 years to move, after attaining the 20,000 membership count. In contrast, 2006 is only a few months away. Most people don't have that short a fuse. Oh, and IIRC the list was originally created (and may still be) for only those moving to the three "preferred" Wyoming counties (Crook, Weston and Hot Springs). That also does not include the folks moving to all the other counties, even if they can get there by 2006.

www.WyomingLibertyIndex.info
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 01:07:59 pm by Zxcv » Logged
Russell Kanning
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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2005, 01:46:02 pm »

How many have signed up for the Wyoming idea? How many have moved? Smiley
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Dreepa
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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2005, 02:30:09 pm »

I like the name Crook County.

Boston....
Quote
FSP will not achieve its 20k for some 20 odd years

really?  Be careful about statistics

Although I do think the idea of have an FSP umbrella org
and then having FSP W FSP E kind of a cool idea.

I really liked WY when I drove through on my way to NH.
Good Luck.
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lloydbob1
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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2005, 04:18:00 pm »

The Free State Project and the Free State are New Hampshire.  The Wyoming thing is something else.  Go do it!
Keep your suggestions to yourselves.
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Boston T. Party
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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2005, 05:39:03 pm »

Friday wrote:
Quote
It's unfortunate that out of all the people who have posted extremely antagonistically about the FSW on this forum, and harangued any present or former FSP members who may move to Wyoming, you chose to address your remarks to me. If you had taken the time to read this whole thread carefully, you would have seen that I have consistently gone on the record as being supportive of the FSW, of wishing it success, and of bearing no ill will to any liberty lovers who prefer Wyoming to New Hampshire.
I printed out the thread in its 124 page entirety.  If I missed reading your previous
good wishes and if such good wishes contravene what seemed to be an unfair (and
inaccurate) swipe at the FSW, then I apologize. 

You've confused the 2006 list with the General Discussion list, which has 296 members:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FSW-discuss/

There is a bit of overlap between the two lists, so many FSW members qualified to join
the 2006 list focus for now on the general list (including myself, at times!).

Zxcv wrote:
Quote
Oh, BTW Friday, it is a mistake to conclude that only the 2006 list are going to Wyoming. Clearly there are lots of people not on that list who intend to move there; I'm one of them. After all, even FSP gave their members 5 years to move, after attaining the 20,000 membership count. In contrast, 2006 is only a few months away. Most people don't have that short a fuse. Oh, and IIRC the list was originally created (and may still be) for only those moving to the three "preferred" Wyoming counties (Crook, Weston and Hot Springs). That also does not include the folks moving to all the other counties, even if they can get there by 2006.
Agreed Zxcv, and well spoken--thanks!

In short, I have consciously taken an extremely qualitative approach to the
FSW's initial membership drive, at the expense of sheer sign-up numbers.  The $25
"cover charge," the initial 3-counties area, and the by-2010 relocation date have
all combined to restrict new members.  Even still, FSW relocators to Wyoming are at
least 10% of the FSP's NH relocators, and perhaps closer to 20%.  For a much smaller
org with very little press and hoop-lah, and with as little time as I have so far had to
devote to the FSW, I find that astonishing.

But back to the thread's topic:  the FSP obviously serves a market need, and not even
I am hollering for it to "fold" (as it said it would next September).  However, what I am
urging of the FSP is to be absolutely forthright with your people (e.g., how about adjusting
your numbers by subtracting the near 2,000 uncontactable nonvoters?), and at least gracious
to us free staters out West.  In fact, this is about all I've ever asked of the FSP.

Cordially,
Boston T. Party

www.freestatewyoming.org
www.javelinpress.com
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Dave Mincin
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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2005, 06:11:06 pm »

Hey Dear Cordially! Roll Eyes

Please don't come over here telling us what we should be doing. Huh

How about you?Huh Huh  Started a FSP west perhaps a year and a half, two years
ago? Huh  Charged an admission fee? Huh  How many folks involved in your project?
How many folks have moved?  Numbers dude, not bull!

You got a yahoo group that has no action. Roll Eyes  You have done exactly nothing, at
least that is visible? Tongue  Oh yea, you need to sensor each new member...Wow, that is
freedom for sure! Roll Eyes

You bailed on the FSP because we didn't vote to do what you think is best? Huh  Sorry
take you cookie and go home dude!  So what, you wrote a couple books! Roll Eyes  Sorry dude,
it doesn't impress me! Huh  I mean we all know that you are so cool and you have the
true word! Huh

Dare I say, you are also associated with the loosersville liiberty movement that has done
nothing but loose for the last...hello how old are you?? Huh

Yo Dude...were is the beef? Huh  Come on back and show us what great thilngs you are
doing out west...then expect the folks will listen...and maybe even join you, but if all you
can do is wine, and talk about what we should be doing...he Mr author go get bent.

The proof is in the pudding...and so far yours is like sugar free! Grin

Hello real world, prove me wrong...and well I'm cool with that cause then you're showing me
you are actually doing something...and I'm all about freedom winning anywhere!

I'm Dave Mincin dude...Who are you real world Boston T Party...what are you afraid of???
What are you hiding from! Grin

Liberty is loosing because of folks like you with their selfrighteous pomp...dude!

Just my opinion! Cool

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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2005, 06:42:26 pm »

Is the question about practical implementation or the principle? Because the "who decides" question could be asked about any element of these statements. My interest was in drawing up a brief elaboration of the principles that we all universally believe in. Surely everyone agrees with the principle that some of the truly dangerously insane or severely mentally disabled (Terri Schiavo), assuming that has been satisfactorily determined, may not have all the rights that other human beings have?

Umm, no. They have rights too.

Tracy
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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2005, 06:53:40 pm »

Come next September, the FSP will lose many members, many of them for Wyoming.
While that is inevitable, rancor is not.  We are all free staters.

Shortly after the 2003 vote I offered to work with the FSP on mutual matters.
That offer still stands.

Best wishes to all,
Boston T. Party

www.freestatewyoming.org
www.javelinpress.com


The FSP lost me to Wyoming two years ago, after the vote occurred.

I was one of the many people who researched the best chance for success statistically, then opted out of New Hampshire and choose Wyoming as the best State for us to succeed.

After a dissappointing vote, I decided to go on with things in my life.  Many months later I was extremely curious about what Boston T. Party's opinion was of the choice of New Hampshire so I jumped on this forum posting under the username Summerlin and asked a question about what Boston T. Party thought about the choice of New Hampshire.  Promptly my thread was deleted and then when I raised a stink with a couple other members my thread on the subject majically re-appeared.

I then did some googl'ing and found Boston's Open letter #1 and Open letter #2 to Free Staters:
http://www.freecolorado.com/2003/11/fsboston.html
http://www.freecolorado.com/2003/11/btp2.html

So what I'm saying now is... WOW!  Boston T. Party is actually posting on this forum in search of honest discourse - without being banned, yet?

But will this post of mine?

I would like to conclude by stating that I earnestly wish you men and women of FSP the best success!

To me it is great to see further initiatives of discourse by BTP to the 'leadership' and members of FSP here.  The FSW has clearly offered it's hand in seek of a honest discourse.

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It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! - Patrick Henry, radical antifederalist, patriot.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 11:38:46 am by idakfan » Logged
JonM
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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2005, 07:50:59 pm »

I always had the impression the FSW plan was about takeover by outnumbering, which didn't appeal to me.
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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2005, 12:25:08 pm »

WOW!  The bitter hostility between factions here is amazing.  I became aware of the Free State movement (and the libertarian movement, in general) after the state vote, so I have no dog in the state fight.  But, some good pints (sorry, Freudian Slip) points are raised before the yelling starts.

Most of us advocate the free market and value a variety of choice in matters from soda pop to self-defense.  Why, then, are we limiting the market of freedom, drowning out a significant voice, and restricting choice in such an important matter?

What would the harm be of having a Free State organization with an Eastern and Western option?  Are we afraid the choice will dilute the chances of success?  Coke didn't just stay with Coca-Cola.  No, they have several products on the market that may dilute the sales of their cola product, but they aren't too worried about it since they have more money than Alan Greenspan.  Instead Coke worries about dilution from outside sources, which on our end of the analogy would be government and statism.  So instead of worrying about losing market share from offering too many choices, let's give more choices and gain more market share against the State.

If I'm a stakeholder in the FSP movement and the goals we are trying to accomplish (we all are, aren't we?), then I would vote to merge with the FSW and run the thing like an ubermovement with expanded options and and a greater market share.

Think of the publicity that will come of it.  "Freedom movements merge and gain strength!"  The number of signatories will be bigger and help to eliminate the "I'm all alone" feeling of potential members.  The two factions may compete some internally for a division of the members, but I think the overall rate of growth would increase with such a move.  It is time to live what we preach and give people a choice for their freedom beyond take it or leave it.

As for specifics of the merger, well, I'll leave that up to the board(s).  But I think the option should be considered.
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Re: Discuss FSP mission & future
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2005, 07:26:06 pm »

move to cheshire county ..... sounds like a plan Cool
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