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Author Topic: What about being an unwelcome presence?  (Read 29052 times)
Heyduke
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What about being an unwelcome presence?
« on: October 13, 2002, 07:21:44 am »

I hope that this can be discussed constructively.  

I am a native of New Hampshire, and I am not the least bit excited about the idea of 20,000 out-of-staters moving in and attempting to hijack the local political system.  

How does FSP plan upon addressing this extremely valid concern of mine?  

Thanks...
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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2002, 09:16:52 am »

Remember that 20,000 people can't "hijack" a state by themselves.  We will have to do our job of education right in order to win elections.  We believe that the only reason government has grown so large is that people have been too apathetic to resist it, and libertarian ideas have not gotten the public exposure they deserve.  Moving 20,000 activists will do nothing more and nothing less than making the libertarian alternative of individual rights, free markets, decentralization, and peace a relevant option again.  We will still need to persuade 100-200,000 others to bring the ideas into practice.  If you are not afraid of a public debate between the ideas of liberty and your own ideas, then you should not be afraid of the Free State Project at all.
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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2002, 03:32:10 pm »

I'll be contemplating your responses for a bit, but wanted to at least state an appreciation for your willingness to discuss this issue from a non-defensive position.  

Cheers..
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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2002, 08:07:25 pm »

So many things to respond to!  I think I'll just field tidbits here and there rather than commence some funky manifesto...

NH has been invaded by MA--and others, but to that end, there is still a kinship.  A large percentage of MA natives that I have met that now reside in NH have actually altered their own perceptions and value systems--The NH mystique if you will, has these generally more liberal folks acting the part of the yankee conservative--even to the extent of claiming native status and deferring in general to many of the existing trends--a 'when in Rome' mentailty.  In NH, MA folks are resented to a degree, but nowhere near as much as NY, NJ, and points South residents--same goes for VT and ME...we have a kinship amongst ourselves, but it is more inclusionary on a regional basis and more exclusionary on a wider basis.  

Folks here don't ask where you're from and then sneer if they don't approve of the answer...it's pretty obvious who's who based on anything from your license plate # to your last name (my last name is 6 letters and 2 syllables and has never been properly pronounced outside of New England).  

Anyways--I caution you on assuming that a state as rich in history and culture as NH would open its arms wide and accept any size group let alone 5~20 thousand.  I know for a fact that there are few locations that could absorb that size a population increase--the move alone would likely cause backlash with the local incumbent officers to create growth moratoriums, and there is no one area outside of Berlin that could handle such an influx.  There is a housing shortage in this state--a severe one.  My town is currently enacting a moratorium on new developments in an effort to stall the enormous impact upon infrastructure that this wanton growth creates.  

Lastly for the moment--to attempt to quantify NH or any New England state by looking at census stats is to grossly misunderstand how we think and function around here.  For instance--I'm a highly educated professional NH native, registered repub right now, was ind. before the primaries, will vote down fernald, support shaheen, jeb bradley, voted for mccain and then gore...when I was a VT resident for a few years, I helped elect Bernie Sanders, Pete Clavelle and Howard Dean.  And I'm not alone...as the last Pres. primary revealed, as well as the election of Angus King in Maine, the tremendous support for Jim Jeffords in VT, and a staunch refusal to enact income and sales taxes in NH in spite of the would be risk to the educational funding system.  

In short, if you all come to NH, VT or ME, you will likely find yourselves assimilated to us long before any of us embrace your philosophies.  

Just sayin...
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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2002, 09:08:34 pm »

Hi Heyduke

Very nice summery of the New England character. Idaho or Montana is a much better choice for the free staters anyway!
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Heyduke
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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2002, 06:44:40 am »

I too would welcome some jerk dilution as well...

I have appreciation for the challenges before you.  I lived in Seattle for a few years, and upon returning to NH was forced to reacclimate to the stoic conservative reality.  Seattle--walk up to anyone and say hello and no one thinks otherwise.  Back here--you walk right up to someone and start talking to them and more often than not they're going to suspect you of something from the get go.  

My suggestion would be to identify a destination based more upon the current political attitude--VT having the PC and Greens parties as well as a Socialist rep. already has a cavalier approach to political paradigm--as well as a strong base of aging counterculturists from the 60s.  NH has a bunch of cranky old buggers that will vote the 'wrong' way out of spite.  Northern Maine would likely be the best bet--Machias area perhaps.  

But as I said--you have a tough row to hoe ahead of you, and your biggest challenge from a philosophical standpoint (based solely upon what I have been reading on these forums), is hubris.  

Happy conquering european day!
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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2002, 08:07:58 am »

I would very much like to be assimilated to the NH mentality, while still of course pursuing our political goals.  I used to live in Connecticut, and my wife and I have visited New Hampshire, and we love it.  We also love Vermont, but I think the Socialists there might give the FSP a hard time; after all, we Free-Staters are cranky old buggers ourselves. Wink
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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2002, 09:50:05 am »

That's ironic--my title in a different forum is:  curmudgeon...
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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2002, 11:19:55 pm »

Heyduke wrote (about NH)

<<There is a housing shortage in this state--a severe one.  >>

Heyduke's arguments are definitely swinging me against NH and toward Idaho or Montana also.  There at least the growth spurt we engender would be economically welcome and there would be room for us.

Dada  
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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2002, 03:10:43 pm »

As an example of the reception the FSP could get; and this is only one of several posters with similar positions.

Over on the Slashdot forum Chris Johnson writes:
Quote
These people have the gall to list Vermont as one of their candidates- and we in Vermont are one of the most progressive states in the Union- AND we have guns.
We're currently busy digesting our Civil Unions law legalizing a form of gay marriage- you'll see some people with 'Take Vermont Back' bumper stickers, those are the fundies, and about as many with 'Take Vermont Forward' bumper stickers, including nongays who are just progressive socially. We're busy with that and don't need the heartache.
But, if 20,000 armed Libertarians try to move in and take us over, all that will be quickly forgotten and it'll be War on the Flatlanders- we do NOT like invasion. We kinda joke bitterly about flatlanders 'invading' even when it's just rich people moving in and putting up mansions in which they never stay, being too busy screwing people over in New York or wherever. Even the idea of twenty thousand ORGANIZED flatlanders invading and taking over politically is beyond alarming. We'd have EVERYBODY siding against them. Not to see the looks on their faces- but because we're free, dammit, our state works the way we want it, and they're proposing to traipse in and install themselves as the ones in charge. NOT!
They'd be lucky to see only 20,000 people organized to resist them. I suppose it's maybe over-reacting because they'll never get it together to actually do this anywhere- but I'm just saying, if they did, in Vermont they'd be INVADING FLATLANDERS and you would not believe the amount of anger they would provoke. What is the matter with them anyway, to even THINK of such a thing?


This Mountain Coloradan finds the repeated Vermont references to "flatlanders" kind of, well, flat. But they do have to make the best of what they have, though they do have some topographic relief which rivals what Colorado has - though Montana beats both states for sheer relief - 3,000ft to 11,000 ft (Billings to Beartooth Pass)
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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2002, 03:19:13 pm »

Chris Johnson is obviously an envirofascist and has not responded to most of my responses to him - in fact, he hasn't directly addressed any of the points I made in response to him, including the fact that he and his fellow socialists took over Vermont from the conservatives.  He's the sort of fellow we would have no chance of winning over, unlike Heyduke here.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2002, 03:20:31 pm by Jason P. Sorens » Logged

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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2002, 04:24:22 pm »

Yeah, who is VT calling FLATLANDERS?!?  

I agree with Joe on another point.  I am a native Coloradan.  I grew up in the suburbs of Denver when Denver was still considered a "cow town" and when the suburbs were FAR from the city itself.  

In 1993 I moved to Meeker, which is a TINY town on the Western Slope, in order to get away from the CROWDS of people who had invaded the city by then (Californians and Texans mostly but from everywhere).  In the 5 years that I lived in that area I sat and WATCHED the waves of people moving there too.  I got to where this Colorado NATIVE could not live there anymore.  

We lived in Colorado to be away from the big cities and to have a little more control over ourselves and our politics.  That is not possible anymore, IMO.  The city stretches from Ft. Collins to Colorado Springs and that city controls what happens politically in the ENTIRE state.  That is NOT right.  

I moved to Montana to try and make a stand here.  In a place that still had space and where freedom is still viable and real.  But you know what everyone here tells me?  "You're from Colorado?  Everyone from Colorado is moving here!"  I tell them to hang on to their shorts, it's only going to get worse.  

Places back east and cities on the west coast are OVER RUN with too many people.  They are going to have to go somewhere and Montana looks pretty good to them.  I want to be able to own property, affect things here and have things running a certain way by the time they get here.  The big thing we have going for us up here, that slows that process down, is that it is DAMN cold up here and most people don't like it and can't hack it.  Grin

The LP is not strong here and it could be.  The town I live in is VERY Democratic - old mining town full of Union members - but most of them are sick and tired of big politics and too much interference from the government.  The Democratic candidate for Senator just DRAGGED the Republican candidate through the mud and as a result he resigned his campaign.  The LP candidate is looking pretty good to folks around here right now - even my MOTHER is voting for him now and that is a MIRACLE in itself.  People are ripe for reform in this state and I love to see it!
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"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!  I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."  
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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2002, 12:10:37 pm »

hey there.

I'm new to this forum, just found out about the project today from an article in the Morning Sentinel here in Waterville, ME. The article's at
http://www.centralmaine.com/view/columns/021024thu_brun.shtml

I'm from Maine, and i definitely think there's plenty of people in this state that'd be into this project, especially in the non-southern/midcoast areas. But i've also seen too many instances of people moving in from away with plans to "change" or "fix" maine, and pushing their ideas without first getting aclimated and listening to the people around them who know and are from this state. Also, there have already been militia meetings here about state secession, and articles in local papers about the subject, so this isn't a new idea. Thomas Naylor has been writing for some time of the reasons and viability for New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, and the Maritimes to secede and form their own country. Northern Maine also has the highest concentration of people using American Liberty Dollars (http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=114&contentid=493 and www.norfed.org) i think of anywhere in the US, and a generally libertarian sentiment (especially Houlton).

There definitely is resentment of the tons of people moving in from away to Maine and trying to turn it either into a resort/summer attraction/quaint retreat/retirement home or a Connecticut suburb. If people moving in don't do that, listen to the natives, take some time to understand and appreciate local cultures, and let the people who are native to the state and already talking and active take the lead on this, i think this project could seriously work in maine. And it's the natives for the most part, not the people from away, who are going to be receptive to these ideas.

glad people are talking about this.
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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2002, 12:18:34 pm »

Thanks for coming by, sterren!  The editorial does use words like "takeover" and "invasion," but by and large it is a fair one.  We don't see this as a takeover at all, because we want to conform to the local traditions of the state we choose, not to change them.  Also, 20,000 really isn't enough to just "take over," but we will be able to hold politicians accountable and bring ideas of liberty and decentralization into front and center of policy debates.
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Re:What about being an unwelcome presence?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2002, 07:17:42 pm »

sterren-I could not agree more.  

I know the people in Montana would feel the same way if a big group came in here and wanted to "take over".  I don't think anyone here feels like that would be the best plan of action for going into any new invironment.  I certainly isn't how I would act if another state is chosen and I had to move there.

Having lived here for 5 years I DO think people here would be receptive to the idea and the premise of the project but I don't think anybody here would like the idea of some "pushy, do things OUR way now" crowd.
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"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!  I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."  
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