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Author Topic: NH vs WY  (Read 152988 times)

George Reich

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NH vs WY
« on: November 04, 2002, 03:28:13 pm »

New Hampshire's helmet laws are the least restrictive of our ten candidate states. Here's a map:

http://usff.com/hldl/frames/50state.html

 :o
« Last Edit: September 08, 2003, 10:20:14 pm by JasonPSorens »
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mdlowry

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Re:Not Free, Semi-Free, and 100% Free States
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2002, 05:31:54 pm »

NH also does not require seat belts for those over 18.  I'm not sure if any other state that does this.
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Chuckster

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Re:Not Free, Semi-Free, and 100% Free States
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2002, 09:25:19 pm »

Helmet laws can be beaten :).  I've been involved in two successful helmet law repeal campaigns in the last thirty years.

What about gun laws? they are MUCH more difficut to deal with.  Is any state better than Vermont on RKBA?
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ZionCurtain

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Wyoming Vs New Hampshire
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2002, 10:04:46 am »

Loos like it is boiling down to these 2.

High Votes for Conservative and Libertarian Presidential Candidates
1. Wyoming
2. Idaho
3. North Dakota
4. South Dakota
5. Alaska
6. Montana
7. New Hampshire
8. Maine
9. Delaware
10. Vermont

Which way do you vote?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2002, 03:47:51 pm by ZionCurtain »
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Wyoming Vs New Hampshire
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2002, 01:17:11 pm »

I posted some facts and asked for intelligent conversation about whether or not these were indicators of existing libertarian attitudes. Nobody has any opinion about these?
I agree with you here. All the other posts seem like attacks on you and the premise, but not on the facts you posted. The facts are the long lists of stats, not that people can't understand the hypothetical in your first post that you meant to show might apply to NH (with an unknown percent).

I'd been leaning more towards VT over NH, but I think you make a very compelling argument for NH.

How about highest # of elected Libertarians? NH comes out on top:
http://www.lp.org/organization/states.html

NH - 26
VT - 18
ME - 7
ID - 3
DE - 2
SD - 1
WY - 1
AK - 1
MT - 0
ND - 0

This is one of the most important factors to consider, IMHO. If a state has never elected a third party candidate, what are the odds the FSP will have any success in that state?

I see this as a much better sign of native support than how many people voted republican, as many like to use. Republicans, aside from Ron Paul and Jim Jeffords (before leaving the party), rarely if every vote against the party line. We need voters willing to accept candidates who aren't republicans or democrats.

Mark

What I find appalling is that NH has elected so many LP but has yet to do anything about it, that is more of a negative than a positive in my opinion. People want a different voice but not a different way of living in NH. FSP is about the different way of living or at least that is what I thought.
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JT

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Re:Wyoming Vs New Hampshire
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2002, 01:47:02 pm »

I anticipate WY will be the first Free State.  
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Michelle

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Re:Wyoming Vs New Hampshire
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2002, 01:50:38 pm »

Quote
From the FSP state data page:
How about low dependence on the federal government? NH is #1 among the states we are considering.
How about smallest total government sector? NH is #1 among the states we are considering.
How about smallest state and local government sector? NH is #1 among the states we are considering.

How about density of current LP members in each state. NH is #1 in the nation (Sept. 30, 2002 figures):

State / Rank against 50 / density

NH / #1 / 202.5
AK / #2 / 184.3
VT / #3 / 164.7
WY / #9 / 123.4
ME / #14 / 105.7
ID / #17 / 103
MT / #18 / 96.2
DE / #27 / 76.6
ND / #43 / 52
SD / #44 / 48.9

What about a history of rejecting laws restrictive of personal freedom just to get federal highway dollars? Again, NH comes out ahead:
Least restrictive helmet laws in the nation: http://usff.com/hldl/frames/50state.html
Least restrictive seatbelt laws in the nation: http://www.iihs.org/safety_facts/state_laws/restrain.htm

How about some of the lowest taxes in the nation? NH comes out on top (SD looks good here too):

Taxes as a percentage of gross personal income:

#1 NH 4.54% - 1st in nation
#2 SD 5.05% - 2nd in nation
#3 MT 7.26% - 28th in nation
#4 WY 7.61% - 31st in nation
#5 ND 7.94% - 34th in nation
#6 AK 8.04% - 36th in nation
#7 ID 8.32% - 39th in nation
#8 ME 8.63% - 43rd in nation
#9 DE 9.19% - 47th in nation
#10 VT 9.57% - 48th in nation

State taxes per capita:

#1 SD $1226/person - 1st in nation
#2 NH $1372/person - 4th in nation
#3 MT $1564/person - 9th in nation
#4 ND $1826/person - 25th in nation
#5 ID $1837/person - 28th in nation
#6 WY $1952/person - 34th in nation
#7 ME $2087/person - 37th in nation
#8 AK $2270/person - 41st in nation
#9 VT $2416/person - 44th in nation
#10 DE $2721/person - 48th in nation

How about $s spent per citizen (state budget / state citizens). NH comes out on top:
This is a calculation that was done by Keith Murray and posted on the e-list, I'm posting the top 5.

New Hampshire
2985.95

South Dakota
3323.87

Idaho
3505.54

North Dakota
3920.90

Montana
4022.41

Quote
What I find appalling is that NH has elected so many LP but has yet to do anything about it, that is more of a negative than a positive in my opinion. People want a different voice but not a different way of living in NH. FSP is about the different way of living or at least that is what I thought.

Don't these facts support a deduction that New Hampshire is "doing something with it"? If not, how do you explain these facts? I'm sorry, but your criticism doesn't hold weight.

Wyoming looks like a really interesting state. If you think it is likely that we would have more success there than in the other nine states, please convince me.
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JT

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Re:Wyoming Vs New Hampshire
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2002, 01:57:02 pm »

WY already has:

No income tax.  This would take us a while to accomplish in some of the other states.

Sales taxes are around 4%.  That's a good number to start with, and hopefully we can reduce it from there.

People who already favor small gov't.

You're "allowed" a jury trial in ALL criminal cases (i.e.  if you get a speeding ticket you can demand a trial by jury).  Many states no longer allow this.

188k people who voted last tue.  The smallest number of voters in any state.

Cheap land.  Different climates (a little something for everyone).  The job prospects don't seem to be as bad as everyone initially thought.  

IMO this would be the easiest state to Free.  I thought that's what we wanted here...
« Last Edit: November 10, 2002, 02:15:15 pm by JT »
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Wyoming Vs New Hampshire
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2002, 03:58:29 pm »

All I have to say is that if NH is such a LP stronghold then why are they no more free than any other state.

Actually I am wrong in my assesment NH does have the least restrictive helmet and seat belt laws.  ;D

30 years and that is all they got?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2002, 04:33:45 pm by ZionCurtain »
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Wyoming Vs New Hampshire
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2002, 05:06:56 pm »

Wow New Hampshire is in deep dudu. 100 million dollar deficits and how to increase tax to offset it rather than budget cuts. Ouch thats got to hurt.

http://www.nhbankers.com/pdfs/NHBA_Study.pdf
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Kelly

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Re:Wyoming Vs New Hampshire
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2002, 05:28:51 pm »

  I am not sure I would call NH a LP stronghold, but I would argue that they have done quite a bit with their freedom.  Or to be more to the point they have prevented quite a bit from being done with that freedom.
  NH has no state income tax, no sales tax, and for the most part local control of property tax collection and distribution.  They have the smallest tax burden of any state per $1000 dollars of income, and are 3rd smallest based on population alone.  They have the #1 level of per family retail spending, likely because of the above tax situation.  Based on economic indications I would say NH is the most free and vibrant state in the union.
  As for the question of personal freedom, although no seatbelt or helmet laws are nice, they could use some work but they still may come out ahead of all the other states we are considering.  When considering personal freedoms like privacy, property rights, gun laws and the rest, each state seems to have their own individual foibles.
  My personal preference leans twords NH.  It is much easier to prevent the expansion of government that to force it to contract and NH has managed to keep the size of their government for the most part small.
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Jacobus

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Re:Wyoming Vs New Hampshire
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2002, 05:51:28 pm »

I don't think the LP officeholders stat is significant at all.  Most of these offices are such things like water board or dogcatcher.  Many are not political races at all.  More significant is percent vote Libertarians get, which seems to be about the same in the states we're considering.  I actually think elected Libertarians for some public offices is counterproductive: central planning by a Libertarian is no better than central planning by anyone else.  The only value of a Libertarian in office is not in that the person is wiser or a better planner than anyone else, but that they are hopefully working toward reducing government power, including the position they hold.

Are the tax situations very different in WY or NH?  It's tough to say, and it depends on which types of taxes you "prefer."  

I see on this thread too much personification of states.  States are not people.  Saying that "New Hampshire is not doing anything about it" does not make sense, since New Hampshire is not an entity capable of action.  It is an arbitrary geographic region.  It does facilitate easier discussion to say things like "New Hampshire decided to..." even if that's not really what we mean, but we should remember that we just want to find the geographic region where we will be most successful.  Challenging a state as if it is a person does not get us anywhere.
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Kelly

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Re:Wyoming Vs New Hampshire
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2002, 06:35:44 pm »

Quote
Are the tax situations very different in WY or NH?  It's tough to say, and it depends on which types of taxes you "prefer."  
 That is quite true if we are just comparing NH with WY.  Neither has a state income tax.  NH has no sales tax, WY has a 4% rate which is pretty low.  Property tax is the tough one because it varies from area to area even within a state, the best I could do was to find a list that sighted the largest cities in each state after you factor in all the assessment tricks, for WY it is .77% and for NH it is 3.48% those were figures from "96 I'd be thrilled to see anything newer.
  If you are truely going to compare I think you have to figure out the total tax burden per person
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Wyoming Vs New Hampshire
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2002, 07:12:32 pm »

What about this link:

http://www.nhbankers.com/pdfs/NHBA_Study.pdf

$100,000,000 tax increase study for NH. Looks like they are going the other way to me.
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Kelly

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Re:Wyoming Vs New Hampshire
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2002, 07:52:39 pm »

 The article cited, refers to a proposal, but it also does discuss the recent increases in business tax rates.  Yet again, probably the only way to look at this issue effectively, is to take the total state revenues and divide by the population.  There are just too many ways for a government to tax to try and find them all.
  With regards to my previous post " anything newer " please pardon my grammer. (CA public education don't ya know.)
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