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Author Topic: Federal Land Ownership Maps!  (Read 53128 times)

johnadams

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2003, 06:44:57 pm »

What's wrong with that scene of sagebrush and rabbitbrush? It's great for dirtbiking and riding ATV's. It's great for really long range shooting of 600 yards to 1000 yards. You really ought to try really, really long range targets with honest-to-gosh sniper rifles (oops, precision long range rifles (300 magnums are great but 338 Lapua's and 50 BMG's are better))  ;D :o
There, see, I told everybody, some people will like the sagebrush and rabbitbrush! :)

Quote
Eastern and especially southeastern Wyoming gets less snow than New Hampshire.
Skiers might see that as a negative and move closer to the parts of WY that get lots of snow. :)

Quote
Young people are leaving from every town and state for colleges and cities where they can party with more people, go to stadium games, concerts, and have "more to do" (which means more done for them).  They don't want to work for their keep anymore. They want to be taken care of. They want city discos instead of small town dances. They want big city football games instead of hunting rabbits with grampa or their brothers, sisters, or cousins.

I'd bet rural New Hampshire is losing young people to Boston and Massachusetts. I'd bet even southern New Hampshire is losing young people to the big cities and warmer climates further south.
Instead of everbody making assumptions about how many young people are leaving WY and NH, why doesn't someone look up the actual data?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2003, 06:59:55 pm by johnadams »
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johnadams

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2003, 11:18:56 pm »

....Would someone like to post a picture of the permanent fixtures on the freeways outside most 'major' towns along I-80, the gates with signs saying 'Road closed, return to _____ (the town you just left)'?

Eric
Ask and ye shall receive:

Wyoming I-80 Signs

The links to these images are unreliable, so I'll just link to the main page:
http://www.aaroads.com/wyoming/i-080a.html

"I-80 Closed When Flashing, Return to Laramie"
Westbound Interstate 80 at road closed when flashing sign just northwest of Laramie. Photo taken 2/3/02.

"Strong Wind Possible"
"Strong Wind Possible Next Five Miles sign along Eastbound Interstate 80 ahead of Wyoming 72 (Exit 255). Signs like this one are frequently found along Wyoming highways, and they are generally placed every five miles, thus implying that strong wind is possible throughout the entire state! In our experience, the winds are always blowing in the section of Interstate 80 between Walcott Junction and Quealy Dome Road, so these signs and reminders are warranted. Snow fences along both sides of the highway seem to reinforce the fact that the wind can blow. The winds are stronger here because the land is of a lower elevation than the mountains to the south and north of this location, thus creating a wind funnel. Photo taken 2/3/02."

Arlington
"Eastbound Interstate 80 at Exit 272 in Arlington. This is Wyoming 13, but there is no shield on the advance guide signs. Although it may not seem like it in this photo, the section of transcontinental Interstate 80 most likely to be closed is the stretch of Interstate 80 near Arlington. This is primarily due to the steep grade on westbound after Exit 272 as well as strong winds, blowing snow, and black ice. Snow fences and sand have partially mitigated these issues, but nevertheless, Interstate 80 around Arlington may be treacherous in the winter and even in the summer, as severe thunderstorms are not uncommon. Photo taken 2/4/02."

Return to Evanston
"Along all major arterials, the Wyoming Department of Transportation has placed warning signs and crossing gates to allow for the closure of these highways during inclement weather. One of these barriers is located on eastbound Interstate 80 just east of Exit 5. This gate may be activated during storms involving snow, wind, or dust or in the event of black ice. Drivers faced with this barrier are required to turn around via the median U-turn connector and return to Evanston. Photo taken by Dan Stober, 6/98."

---------------------------------------------------------------

If someone likes the Belle Fourche Valley, they may want to consider SD, as most of it is contained within that state, but it does extend into the Northeastern corner of WY. It looks like the largest community in that region of WY is Sundance.

Map: Belle Fourche Area, (mostly) South Dakota


Devil's Tower National Monument (federal land), Belle Fourche Valley, WY


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Images of the beautiful Red Desert of South-Central Wyoming:

Map: Greater Red Desert


Fremont


Red Desert Landmark, The Boars Tusk


Antelope: Red Desert, Wyoming


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The more important fact about the large portion of federal lands in WY to a libertarian is not that it means there isn't private land left to develop, but that the federal government socialized much of the land and it will be difficult for the FSP to liberate that land, as it will require control of the US Congress and Presidency to do it. A free state is not really completely free until its land is free. Some have advocated having the mostly private portion of the state secede, but that would leave the people in the rest of the state screwed.

Also, lots of federal land means lots of people and businesses dependent on the federal government for jobs, grazing rights, oil and gas extraction rights, mineral rights, etc. The federal government can also shut down thru roads and access roads in areas they control, start brush fires that can get out of control, introduce predators, etc. All the evils that the federal government is known for they can do with greater latitude in lands they control. If you don't think federal land is a bad thing, think about what it would mean if ALL land was federalized and you'll realize that it is bad.

But this doesn't mean that WY should be excluded from consideration, just that ALL the facts should be considered, not just some.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2003, 11:21:07 pm by johnadams »
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Muleskinner

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2003, 11:37:58 pm »

God Almighty?
Where do I start?

Karl found a photo of honest-to-God desert in Sweetwater county just west of Rawlins and called it "typical non-Federal Wyoming landscape".  That got me so angry that I had to take a walk and commune with my Lord before coming back here.

You use that high desert country to paint a despicable picture of the rest of Wyoming. (I have to take another walk.)
Sweetwater county is proud of its high desert country.
http://www.wyomingshighdesertcountry.com/
You spit on it instead!

You ignore the dairy country around Torrington which is all private ranchland.  You ignore those lush river bottoms in Crook county that Joe found photos of.  (Joe, there are lot's more out here. You only found a few of our best private lands.)  You ignore the hundreds of square miles of forests and meadows in the Laramie mountains that are privately owned.

Hank is right.  We have more good private farm and forest land than New Hampshire could fit in its borders. Where do I start?

I better stop here.
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2003, 11:48:48 pm »

What's wrong with that scene of sagebrush and rabbitbrush? It's great for dirtbiking and riding ATV's. It's great for really long range shooting of 600 yards to 1000 yards. You really ought to try really, really long range targets with honest-to-gosh sniper rifles (oops, precision long range rifles (300 magnums are great but 338 Lapua's and 50 BMG's are better))  ;D :o

I certainly enjoy long range shooting, but outside of shooting prairie dogs, what good is it? Militarily speaking, the legend of the lone rifleman is a myth disproven by scientific fact.

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Eastern and especially southeastern Wyoming gets less snow than New Hampshire.

Certainly, but how big does it drift, as that part of the state has strong winds in winter? Moreover, looking at hydrological records, the little snow that part of the state gets is the majority of its yearly precipitation.

Quote

Quality land?  You could fit all of New Hampshire's "private quality land" in a small corner of Wyoming.  Ignore the sagebrush if you want, our good parts out-acre your good parts.


Counting quality for quality, the quality acre in NH is worth 100 'quality' acres in WY, just from looking at the production stats that farmers in the two states report. You need hundreds of acres in WY to equal a smaller lot in NH.

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Young people are leaving from every town and state for colleges and cities where they can party with more people, go to stadium games, concerts, and have "more to do" (which means more done for them).  They don't want to work for their keep anymore. They want to be taken care of. They want city discos instead of small town dances. They want big city football games instead of hunting rabbits with grampa or their brothers, sisters, or cousins.

Not much escaping by kids from here, more like TO here. NH has the largest sports draw in all of New England, Loudon Speedway, which seats over 80,000 people on race weekends. We've got minor league baseball, regualr rock concerts in a number of places, night clubs, art galleries and museums, PLUS we have tons of outdoor recreation year round of ALL sorts: water sports, fresh and salt water, hunting and fishing, camping and LOTS of excellent hiking, antiquing, historic sightseeing in spades, lots of world class golf courses, gyms, tons of colleges and universities. Kids love moving here. Plymouth State University was rated the number 8 party school in the country by Playboy, and Dartmouth and UNH are not far behind. We've got amusement parks, beaches, rivers and lakes.

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I'd bet rural New Hampshire is losing young people to Boston and Massachusetts. I'd bet even southern New Hampshire is losing young people to the big cities and warmer climates further south.

While some go to the big cities for a time, many move back to raise families, and more never leave, as there are plenty of opportunities right here. I moved back here permanently after a decade out of state in the military and on business.

Southern NH is actually pretty popular with the younger folks, they tend to move to the southern part of the state from the northern part for job and educational opportunities. It is very easy to live in Nashua or Portsmouth and commute to work in the Boston area. My grandfather commuted for a decade from Hooksett (between Manchester and Concord) to Boston.
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freedomroad

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2003, 12:13:43 am »

Joe, I agree that the preceding few posts may not have been in good taste and included selective data and exaggeration, but hardly sink to the level of 'lies'.

Then again, your postings tend to exaggerate in the other direction by selecting the rosiest pictures of WY, avoiding and minimizing the valid concerns of those who question whether the FSP could succeed in WY better than in NH, and emphasizing perceived drawbacks to NH.

Both are at best in poor taste, at worst not completely honest. At least the NH supporters in question are doing it with a sense of humor.

Eric

Eric, I would say that the comments by the above posters are sick and more (but I will not use those words).  I hope those posters delete their posts.  Vermont, upstate NY, and the entire New England region looks nice.  

However, WY/SD/MT also look nice.  The WY/SD/MT region gets a ton more tourist even though less people live near it.  It has far more famous tourism sities (both private and public), and I like it much better.  I have to say, in the 7 days th I traveled WY (thought it only take 5 hours to drive from Cheyenne in the south to Sheridan in the north), I did not see but maybe 1-3 small sections that looked somewhat like the previous picture.  

Personally, I like variety.  I would never live in a sanding, dry, dusty, brown place.  However, I've only seen places like that in AZ and NM and I loved them.  I never saw them in WY (but there is a large area like that somewhere on I-80).
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2003, 03:32:15 pm »

Sorry Keith (just how many identities are you going to invent to create the illusion that your opinions have more support than they do?) but I've driven every mile of every interstate in WY, as well as several state highways. I found no place in the state that appeared anywhere as fertile as the average acre of NH. Everywhere seemed very dry. The few areas that were forested were very dry, the grasslands were parched. The only wet areas were being irrigated by well water that very instant.

You couldn't start campfires, smoke in public, what have you, and this was in late October and mid June, respectively, not August. The photos presented by WY supporters here reflect a very short period of spring when things are green and living off of snowmelt.

NH is green throughout the year. Right now it is September, and the grass is green, the bushes are green, the trees are green, the ground is wet. Some of the trees are just barely starting to change color for the fall, and I am at a relatively high altitude (over 1200 ft) for residential living. The rivers are full, campers can have campfires, and land owners freely forest and manage their lands without fear of forest fires torching their assets.

Every time I was in WY, the place was like a tinderbox. A week after I left last time a big chunk of the state went up in smoke. The BLM restricts logging on its land, which puts at risk the land of everybody else that neighbors them.
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johnadams

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2003, 09:38:34 pm »

God Almighty?
Where do I start?

Karl found a photo of honest-to-God desert in Sweetwater county just west of Rawlins and called it "typical non-Federal Wyoming landscape".  That got me so angry that I had to take a walk and commune with my Lord before coming back here.

You use that high desert country to paint a despicable picture of the rest of Wyoming. (I have to take another walk.)
Sweetwater county is proud of its high desert country.
http://www.wyomingshighdesertcountry.com/
You spit on it instead!

You ignore the dairy country around Torrington which is all private ranchland.  You ignore those lush river bottoms in Crook county that Joe found photos of.  (Joe, there are lot's more out here. You only found a few of our best private lands.)  You ignore the hundreds of square miles of forests and meadows in the Laramie mountains that are privately owned.

Hank is right.  We have more good private farm and forest land than New Hampshire could fit in its borders. Where do I start?

I better stop here.
I'm not sure who you are directing your post to, Muleskinner, but I personally find the desert to be very beautiful. I certainly don't spit on it, I savor it. If arid air didn't do a job on my skin and my throat I might live in the desert myself. To pretend that WY's beautiful deserts and arid areas don't exist would be to do a disservice to WY and the truth. I think that ALL the areas of WY should be presented, not just some. Joe did a good job of showing some of the more water-endowed areas. I supplemented that with some photos of the beautiful Red Desert. I am interested in learning about all of WY, not just some of it.

Lawrence of Arabia found the Arabian deserts to be beautiful. I agree with him, and I think the American deserts are beautiful too.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 09:40:10 pm by johnadams »
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johnadams

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2003, 09:46:14 pm »

....Eric, I would say that the comments by the above posters are sick and more (but I will not use those words).
LOL!  ;D Too late, you already did!  ;D :D

Quote
Vermont, upstate NY, and the entire New England region looks nice.  

However, WY/SD/MT also look nice.
That's right, Keith/FreedomRoad/YestoAmerica, they are all nice, they are just different, that's all. As I keep saying, different people like different things. What is nectar for one is poison for another. To each their own.

Quote
Personally, I like variety.  I would never live in a sanding, dry, dusty, brown place.  However, I've only seen places like that in AZ and NM and I loved them.  I never saw them in WY (but there is a large area like that somewhere on I-80).
It's too bad you missed the Greater Red Desert of Southcentral WY. It looks gorgeous!--and nice antelope hunting too!
« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 09:55:52 pm by johnadams »
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johnadams

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2003, 10:47:06 pm »

Wyoming's Physical Geography
http://thomas.senate.gov/html/body_geography.html

"Climate

Wyoming is accustomed to warm summers and harsh winters. The average temperature in July is about 65 degrees Farenheit. January averages are 19 degrees F in the northwest corner and as high as 27 degrees F in the Southeast. Water is scarce in the high altitude deserts of Wyoming. The basins can expect to get less than 10 inches of precipitation per year. The areas in the northeast receive slightly more with about 15 inches per  year. Snowfall differs greatly depending on the elevation. In the large basins there is an average of about 20 inches of snowfall compared to over 200 inches in the high mountains. Wyoming is also known for the constant winds that sweep through the basins.

The basins, which lie in the rain shadow of mountains, are very dry, with an average annual precipitation of 25 cm (about 10 inches) or less. The Great Plains region has an annual average of about 38 cm (about 15 inches). The Black Hills region receives slightly more. Thunderstorms and hailstorms are relatively frequent in summer. The annual snowfall ranges from about 50 cm (about 20 inches) in the Bighorn Basin to well over 510 cm (over 200 inches) in the higher mountains where annual precipitation can be 114 cm (45 inches) or more. A distinctive climate feature is the high and persistent winds of the Wyoming Basin. The growing season in Wyoming diminishes generally from east to west, from more than 120 days in the Plains region to less than 80 days in the mountainous northwest.

Plant Life

Wyoming has over 2000 different species of plants located in areas ranging from alpine tundra to vast desert. Throughout the lowlands the land is scattered with sagebrush, Western wheatgrass, and Juniper trees which lie in ridges and along riverbanks. Nearly one fifth of Wyoming is forested. The forested areas are packed densely with ponderosa pines, Englemann spuce, aspens, and fir trees. Above treeline, which is usually about 12,000 feet above sea level, the mountains are covered with many of the same herbaceous plants as those found in the Artic."

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Zack Bass

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2003, 07:47:53 am »



Don't you think there is a reason why the people who live there are all clustered in little areas.  People live were the good land is, that is a fact anywhere.
  ....
The open spaces are great, and will remain that way, because they are just not suitable for people!


Why do we need good land?  How many of us intend to be farmers?  Have you ever made use of "good land"?

What we need is the Freedom to do as we please.

Do you think Singapore was situated on "good land"?  How many people in Singapore do you think are farming?

Manhattan seems to do fine without any farmland or grass at all.  The landscape is far more barren than any picture of Wyoming posted here.

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Liberator

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2003, 04:50:57 pm »

When I started reading this thread it was about federal land ownership. It seems to have devolved into a beauty contest between two supposed front runners for the Free State. If this thread was ever about fed. land ownership why has no one discussed Maine, which has the least fed. land ownership of all the candidate states? Not that it really matters since the voting is over.
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