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Author Topic: Morally Right AND Libertarian To Speak Out Against Family Abuses?  (Read 1665 times)

AmateurEmale

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I would like to ask some libertarians who may also be Christians (not necessarily Christians, but people who are close to their extended families) about some issues that are on my mind right now:

I currently live with two relatives in my thirties, having been impoverished by the Great Recession and I live in the seventh-poorest city in the country, where PCI has not improved since the early 2000s.  People in graphic arts or web design are now expected to have bachelor's degrees and experience even to make $12 an hour, when I could make $13 with less experience and two associates' in 2005-06.

Certain relatives and friends of theirs, have been involved in illicit activity since the late '70s / early '80s.  They forced me to participate in one family gathering when I was eight with a stripper / hooker present and I didn't care to watch in front of my family.  They forced me to participate in family counseling and psychiatric medications when in my early 20s to ongoing as a condition of living with them, when one of my relatives tried to kill herself and it was determined that somehow I had "bipolar disorder" also. ???

Now, as a libertarian, I think that adults and responsible teenagers who have had sex education and passed the age of consent can have sex and use marijuana, alcohol, etc. without the War on Drugs or vice cops attacking them mercilessly.  But I draw the line at violent or irrational behaviors by landlords, or family members forcing you to participate in these activities.  Even the libertarian can make a case for state and local authorities disciplining landlords and family members who act violently and irrationally, which is what I think my relatives and their associates have done.  In particular, I have considered being a confidential informant to the local police about these activities.

Informants typically help the police with "crime families" such as the Mafia or similar, but I am wondering if I live in one? :-X
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JLTW

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Re: Morally Right AND Libertarian To Speak Out Against Family Abuses?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2016, 09:14:23 pm »

As a conflict mediator and nonviolence advocate, I can say that there are many other and far better options to violence intervention than use of the state. There is many a situation where bringing police into a violent situation only adds another violent party to the conflict, furthering the confusion and complexity. Not to mention the many cases of abuse within social services that either replace one abusive family with another or worse, break up a decent family and put a kid in a much worse situation.

That being said, perhaps your statist conclusion comes from a sense of helplessness or having run out other options. It's perfectly normal.

I came from an abusive and complicated home as a kid and moved out when I was 17. Where you draw the line is at consent, which makes sense and is the foundation of The Non-Aggression Principle. Whether or not you have a mental health condition, such as bi polar disorder, does not excuse maltreatment or abuse. It's like them deflecting from their own problems to point out yours, a red herring.

I dreamed for years of escaping but it seemed like a fantasy. When I got fed up and knew I would get out or die trying, nobody believed me. Friends or family (the former of which I loved and latter I hated). Distance is extremely important. You have to fight to the bitter bone until every ounce of energy is gone to get out. And then you find that emotional entanglement is still there, even symptoms of PTSD. It takes years of work to heal, but the last 4 years have been the best in my life. I cannot articulate enough how amazing it is, how profound it is, to escape and be free. To embody freedom from the inside out, to face yourself despite or because of the fear. Nothing can replace that.

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KDus

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Re: Morally Right AND Libertarian To Speak Out Against Family Abuses?
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2016, 09:50:19 pm »

Unless you are legally obligated, do not seek a state solution. You would know if you are legally obligated.

The state solution is far, far, far worse than the problem; regardless of anyone's intention.

It is likely the situation seems worse than it is. And, btw, will get worse when various cops, social workers, and attorneys get involved.

As a guy that needed a wake up call 6 years ago: I got something else, and my kids got 20 months in foster care; apart from each other.
I spent $100k and went to court monthly for 3 years, because a family friend wanted to be helpful and made a phone call.

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ka7rlj

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Re: Morally Right AND Libertarian To Speak Out Against Family Abuses?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2016, 04:15:58 pm »

I was having a discussion with a couple of people about this issue the other day. My question was, how would a society without government handle a situation in which a parent is horribly abusing his or her children?  Or maybe it wouldn't handle it at all, and just let the kids suffer?

I have been a libertarian for several years.  But in the last couple of years, and especially since hearing of the FSP and being exposed to the idea of voluntaryism/anarchy, I am now on the fence.  I am just not "there yet" as far as voluntaryism.  But, if I can see a way it would "work" (that is, somehow take care of (meaning, get the kids out of) the hypothetical situation I have described above, without initiating force), then I would fully convert in a heartbeat.  There are probably lots of other difficult situations I could think of, too.  I have always been against the concept of sovereign immunity - always believed that it's outrageously unfair that, if the cops screw up, it's basically "too bad, so sad," and there's nothing you can do about it.  They should be able to be sued and should have to pay damages to the injured party.  In short, no person or entity should enjoy any special rights that any individual does not have - unless it's voluntary and with respect to someone with whom that person has entered into a contract, obviously.  Not only is sovereign immunity unfair by itself, but it also encourages those acting under that immunity to violate others' rights because, as we all know, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Now, I agree with the idea that others here have mentioned, that just because the state can and does take kids out of abusive situations, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be any better for those kids.  Another thing I've always said is that, if you really want to F*** something up, let the government handle it.  So I get that.

And yes, I also understand that the situation we have today, with government, isn't perfect, either. So some of you reading this may think it's amusing when I want voluntaryism to be "perfect" and it's obvious that our present system is far from it.  Maybe it just has to be a smidge better?  Obviously, nothing is perfect, and nothing never will be.

So that's where I am as far as voluntaryism.  Conceptually, I really like the idea, and it definitely takes care of the sovereign immunity problem.  I have read parts of David Friedman's Machinery of Freedom and am beginning to get an idea of how a voluntaryist society would function, but I'm finding that reading about it just isn't enough.  I need to discuss voluntaryism with the adherents to it - with people who are passionate about it, so that I can resolve questions like this.

So back to my hypothetical question: if we believe that the initiation of force is wrong, then all you could do is ask that parent that he give up his kids, and you know what the answer to that is going to be.  OK, so another idea is that you could pay him money to give up his kids.  Not only would the parent likely not accept _any_ price, but even if he did, that would be unethical as you are essentially buying people.  So what is the answer, then?  Anyone, anyone?.. Bueller, Bueller? lol... That is all I can think of.  There is probably something I'm missing, but I don't know what it is.  If the answer is "nothing," then I can accept that, although that would certainly make it less likely that I would convert to voluntaryism, because any system, in my mind, although it would of course never be perfect, _must_ have a way to resolve injustices and outrageous violations of the rights of a person, such as this.  And saying that the kids can always leave is not really an answer.  I mean, sure, they _could_ leave, but a kid's situation is all he knows and he may even think it's normal.  Even if he doesn't, he feels trapped.  Who is going to take care of him?

I'm also going to take this opportunity to introduce myself, since I've never posted anywhere on the FSP forums before.  First name is Chris (male), I'm mid-40s, live in Cincinnati.  I'm originally from (northern) Ohio but have lived all over the country when I was growing up, because I'm an Air Force "brat."  The closest to New England I've ever been is NJ.  I work as a paralegal and have been in the legal field for about 15 years.  I consider myself a friend of the FSP but so far am not sure if I want to move to the Shire, so I have not signed the Statement of Intent, although I'm open to it and the idea of the FSP does intrigue me.  I think I want to visit NH someday to explore the state and hang with fellow liberty lovers and have some great discussions of political philosophy, drink some local beer, and learn some ways that I can help increase liberty there.  The only potential turn-off to NH for me is the above-average real estate prices (the winters wouldn't bother me), especially coming from a state where the real estate is significantly _less_ expensive than the national average.  A move would be relatively easy for me, though, as I'm single and childless.

I know that I don't have to be a volunaryist to join the FSP, but I am very interested in discussing this...

- Chris
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 04:26:23 pm by ka7rlj »
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Morally Right AND Libertarian To Speak Out Against Family Abuses?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2016, 07:55:26 pm »

It's not initiating force to take kids away from abusive parents. That's covered under "defense of others" as a legitimate use of force.

You should definitely come to NH and experience it for yourself. Highest concentration of liberty lovers in the world! Also, certain locations have lower cost of living than average, though you may have to drive some distance to your job.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

ka7rlj

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Re: Morally Right AND Libertarian To Speak Out Against Family Abuses?
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2016, 08:34:10 pm »

Wow, what a simple answer to what I thought was a complex question LOL!  Yes, that makes perfect sense now.  Obviously, I need to study this concept further. :)

Thanks, Jason, and I did see and download your spreadsheet about the NH towns that you posted in another forum.  I can see how that is going to be very helpful!
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trevorparscal

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Re: Morally Right AND Libertarian To Speak Out Against Family Abuses?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2016, 02:58:17 am »

Excellent response Jason.

Good to meet you Chris.

I will just add that visiting NH was very rewarding for us. We just got home from our visit, and in a few days we are diving cross-country to live in NH for good. We had a great time and met a lot of awesome people at PorcFest. It's just so much fun being around fellow lovers of liberty.


- Trevor
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mistyeyes

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Re: Morally Right AND Libertarian To Speak Out Against Family Abuses?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2016, 08:56:18 am »

If you are certain that someone must be removed from a situation for their own good, please at least have the intellectual, philosophical and conceptual integrity to do it yourself.

I also think that, unless time and circumstance make it impossible, approval and permission from the intended beneficiary are required. /me
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ka7rlj

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Re: Morally Right AND Libertarian To Speak Out Against Family Abuses?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2016, 10:12:05 am »

mistyeyes - my question was completely hypothetical, but yeah, those are very good points.  That would be a sticky situation that must be handled with the utmost care...

Trevor, that is awesome!  What part of NH will you be moving to?  I want to visit, too - I feel like I need to physically check out NH before I commit to moving there.  I suspect it will be fun, too.  Even though I live in a metro area of ~2.2M people, I don't know _any_ local liberty fanatics.  I'm sure there are some; I just don't know who or where they are.  My county does have a chapter of the Libertarian Party, but it's just not the same.  I think Liberty Forum in FEB would be a good time to visit the Shire...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 10:33:52 am by ka7rlj »
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KDus

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Re: Morally Right AND Libertarian To Speak Out Against Family Abuses?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2016, 12:54:13 pm »

I suppose a private version of a child/elder welfare could exist in a voluntary market, just as private policing. Thus, they would have forms of insurance against their bad choices: unlike what we have now. Currently, they are immune from all but the worst offenses and the rest is swept under the rug. Furthermore, in my personal experience, the worst offender was promoted after screwing up my case; insuring I would lose a child because of legal time limits. There is no recourse and they are motivated to keep children in their system as long as possible.
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Morally Right AND Libertarian To Speak Out Against Family Abuses?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2016, 07:41:54 pm »

If you are certain that someone must be removed from a situation for their own good, please at least have the intellectual, philosophical and conceptual integrity to do it yourself.

I also think that, unless time and circumstance make it impossible, approval and permission from the intended beneficiary are required. /me

What if the kid's 2 years old? And sometimes it's safer to delegate authority to enforce justice to someone else. Self-help justice has a checkered history and people usually only resort to it when the proper channels are absent or totally untrustworthy.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism
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