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Author Topic: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists  (Read 115655 times)

lloydbob1

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2005, 10:12:00 am »

The anarchist element within the Libertarian Party is the reason why they will never become a majority party.

Why would the FSP make the same mistake?

TeePee

Anarchist Element?

There is barely a libertarian element in the LP!

http://www.ncc-1776.com/tle2002/libe195-20021021-02.html
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ThomasPaine

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2005, 11:20:50 am »

Quote
I don't think the FSP itself has an answer to that ?.

Exactly my point!

Minarchists and anarchists are fundamentally opposed to one another as one believes in the justified use of limited state force while the other does not. The argument is irrelevant to 98% of the citizens because one has to get 50% plus 1 to achieve political power in our form of governance. Sorry to inform you but outside of anarchist circles most people vote to make a difference not to protest. So who exactly is going to support what form of political organization in NH when many of the people being recruited (anarchists) don't even believe in voting while at the same time most of the people needing to be convinced believe in more than just a limited role for state force?

Excuse me for having trouble seeing the logic. It seems to be based on the false impression that the problem with the Libertarian Party is people are too stupid to see the objective reality of anarchy rather than that reality is much more complex than simply adhering to the non-agression principle. Followers of both minarchism and anarchism mistakenly believe that dominion over a specific territory can be established without government and therefore without the initiation of force. However, there are no meaningful examples of this ever happening in both the civilized, as well as, "tribal" worlds.

Even in the plant and animal kingdoms, we see dominant species "crowding out" other species. Animals with the power to do so, particularly predatory animals, will attack others of their same species in order to monopolize turf or hunting grounds. Pack animals will attack trespassing animals from other packs, and it is common among pack animals for the strongest animal (the alpha male) to assert dominion by force over other animals. When game is killed, it is customary for the rest of the pack to step aside and let the dominant animal take the choicest meat for himself - a form of "tribute" that is not categorically different from the tribute extracted by aristocracy.

Nonetheless, because government follows force, it is shaped by those who already enjoy dominion through force. Rules are written to make the situation seem tolerable to the dominated while further entrenching the ability of dominators to enrich and entrench themselves. The answer, then, is not to remove government from domination, but to remove domination from government - that is, to make government more democratic.

Here, again, we are met with much confusion on the part of minarchists and anarchists between democracy and elections, sometimes expressed by the mildly defective expression, "majority rule," and sometimes by more bombastic pejoratives such as "mobacracy." These false substitutions of one idea for another are reinforced by bizarre aphorisms, such as, "Democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner." Anyone with the most elementary knowledge of predatory ecology knows that the population of sheep always exceeds the population of wolves, and that undermining democracy serves the wolves of human society. Of course the wolves' ideal would be to abolish it altogether, leaving a de facto government of, by and for the wolves.

This is my last post on this topic as I don't want to hijack the thread!

TeePee
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 11:33:48 am by ThomasPaine »
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LfeLbrtyHppnss

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2005, 10:30:06 pm »

Hello, I'm a college student in MA, and I figured the best way to introduce myself was on this comfortable thread.  So...people seem to be sharing their personal quest towards libertarianism, allow me to share mine.

I considered myself quite the conservative Republican just a short four and a half years ago. (And yes...IN MASS!)

I was a staunch supporter of the GOP and the conservative iniatives in Congress - most notably the Contract with America as drafted primarily by Newt Gingrich.  During the 2000 Election I was a Team Leader for the GOP.  I had always been raised to understand the Republican party to be the real party for the middle class.  Most importantly, I had always thought the Republican party's most endearing quality was it's desire to see government limited for the people's well being.

So you might be saying to yourself, "oh no, here comes the socialist turn about where he starts talking about how he's a big liberal now because of evil President Bush".  Hardly.  My right-leaning outlook on life persists but it has been tempered by the cold hard reality that government in all its forms and faces exists to exploit the people they "serve".  It is the nature of the beast, and for that reason it cannot be blamed directly.  But that doesn't mean I have to accept that. 

Socialism in all it forms serves only to disrupt the course of nature, and it places our weaknesses above our strengths.  I will always believe this, because I have faith in humanity.  All one must do is look to history.  History shows us that it is when human beings experience freedom (be it physical, intellectual, etc) they are able to overcome their weaknesses and evolve.  Socialism and most appropriately, Communism, tells us that the only way we as human beings can truly live in harmony and evolve is to mechanize.  We are to become the very Machine that Marx and Engels claimed they were seeking to destroy.  Liberty inevitably produces results.  Yet the current political climate in this country allows for anything but that.

Sure, there comes along a politician now and again who actually seems to have his head on his shoulders but let's face it, too many American's are entirely too apathetic to this disgraceful mockery of the Constitution.  Such is the reason why I admire and appreciate the efforts made on the part of the FSP to counter this civic degradation.  It's nice to know that regardless of the minor political differences we all must have due to our nature as free thinking beings, that there is a group who recognizes that our culture is suffering.  It is being pulled apart by two opposing forces, and our liberties are caught in the crossfire.

I support my President, always.  First and foremost it seems like it is our responsibility as citizens to stick through the hard times and maintain internal solidarity - especially during wartime.  We might have our difficulties with a President, as many of us most likely share for President Bush, but we must also realize that right now...the world is watching.  They will jump at any chance they get - as they already have - to seize the moment when they perceive our "empire" to be faltering, and they will use the hatred that already exists in many countries around the world to see us fail.

I do not perceive President Bush to be an evil man.  I think in his heart of hearts he believes that what he is doing is right, and on some levels he is.  Yet, his failure to take into consideration the impact his rejection of the international community would have on the war effort is perhaps his largest mistake - outside of the Patriot Act.  I mean, I'm certainly the last person you'd ever find glorifying the tragedy that is the United Nations, but Bush's utter lack of diplomatic skills is striking to me.

Worst of all, the Bush presidency has forced me to recognize that which I have already alluded to - the government in all its forms is not to be trusted.  Whether the White House is colored blue or red no longer seems to matter.  It is time for change.

Corey
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AmericanPackMule

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2006, 10:59:13 am »

I hope I'm not too late!

     The Terms: Civil & Liberal seem to be in conflict. When the two Blended make piece.

      The original Definition of:  Liberal = Free Love / Civil = Code of Right & Wrong.
What is Right for some can be Wrong for others. ( Respect the Rights of others.)

       We often find ourselves under the power of a bully as Government.

        Libertine's are obviously under attack, by Conservatives. " Therefore our Civil Defense of our Rights responds."


                  AmericanPackMule  (ZAN-TI-MOW)
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Maarten

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2006, 09:16:05 am »

Hi everyone! I'm from the Netherlands, by the way (kinda forgot to mention that).

When I graduate and get my Master's Degree in a little over two years I am planning on going to the US, because (at least when it was founded) this is the country I would belong to if I had been able to choose at birth :) I think the prospects of improving the amount of freedom in the US are much better than over here, because my country wasn't founded on any of these kinds of principles, and we don't have the advantage of a good Constitution.

I found the FSP website a couple of days ago, and so far it looks very promising. I didn't really have a clue to which state I would want to go when I decided I wanted to move to the US, and NH looks like a very good candidate from all angles. If I knew I could get into the US when I finish my studies I would join the FSP now, but I don't want to enter any obligations like that (even if they weren't legally enforcable, haven't really looked into that) if I don't even know if I can ever fulfill them.

I completely agree with the mission statement of the FSP. The goal you're trying to reach here is exactly the reason I decided to move to the US (in the future, that is), which is another huge plus this state, and this organisation gets. I am not a libertarian in the strict meaning of the word (from what I've gathered so far), but an Objectivist. Ayn Rand's books are what got me interested in this country in the first place, and they changed a lot of my personal viewpoints (for the better, I think :)).

I'm still doing a lot of research on these and related subjects, to better prepare myself. In certain ways 2 years is a long time, but I don't want to be caught with my proverbial pants down when I suddenly have to decide ;)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 09:43:27 am by Maarten »
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lasse

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2006, 01:17:13 pm »

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

I'm an adolescent from Norway, who sees the FSP as his only way out of this socialist travesty of a nation.

I'm currently in school to become what the STCW classifies as an able seaman, and I intend to go back to school to grab a class 1 deck certificate once I get my certificate of apprenticeship. (i.e I'll be a sea captain) I'm still unsure if that'll convince the U.S they will need me.

For this reason, and the fact that the end of my education is 4+ years into the future, I haven't committed to the FSP yet. Perhaps the new immigration laws will make things easier for me? It seems Bush is pushing for them. I'm not too updated on them, though.
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(not that lasse, the other lasse)

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JasonPSorens

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2006, 01:20:55 pm »

It is already reasonably easy for a skilled person from a Western European country to immigrate to the U.S. and gain citizenship. I doubt that the laws will be relaxed much in the near future, however. Coming over on a student visa is an easy way to get here for an extended period of time; then you may be able to stay longer if you show that you have certain skills. I recommend doing some research on the laws.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

John C

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2006, 08:27:21 pm »

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

I'm an adolescent from Norway, who sees the FSP as his only way out of this socialist travesty of a nation.

I'm currently in school to become what the STCW classifies as an able seaman, and I intend to go back to school to grab a class 1 deck certificate once I get my certificate of apprenticeship. (i.e I'll be a sea captain) I'm still unsure if that'll convince the U.S they will need me.

For this reason, and the fact that the end of my education is 4+ years into the future, I haven't committed to the FSP yet. Perhaps the new immigration laws will make things easier for me? It seems Bush is pushing for them. I'm not too updated on them, though.

Just walk in via Mexico, everyone else does. ::)
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KBCraig

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2006, 01:01:55 am »

Welcome, Maarten and lasse!

Don't let your timeline deter you from signing the Statement of Intent.

I hesitated for several months, and then decided that I was committed to move to NH as soon as I possibly can, whether the FSP reaches 20,000 or not. Right now, I'm at least two years from moving; possibly three years. And yet, I've signed as an FSP member, and First 1,000 too.

When you know in your heart that you're not going to be satisfied until you move to NH and do everything you and your fellow activists can do to make NH the most free state, leading the way to a more free nation and more free world, then go ahead and sign. Even if you know you can't make the move for at least 10 years, sign up anyway!

When you know deep in your heart that you have to move, you're exactly the kind of person we need.

Kevin
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John C

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2006, 07:04:00 am »

Welcome, Maarten and lasse!

Don't let your timeline deter you from signing the Statement of Intent.

I hesitated for several months, and then decided that I was committed to move to NH as soon as I possibly can, whether the FSP reaches 20,000 or not. Right now, I'm at least two years from moving; possibly three years. And yet, I've signed as an FSP member, and First 1,000 too.

When you know in your heart that you're not going to be satisfied until you move to NH and do everything you and your fellow activists can do to make NH the most free state, leading the way to a more free nation and more free world, then go ahead and sign. Even if you know you can't make the move for at least 10 years, sign up anyway!

When you know deep in your heart that you have to move, you're exactly the kind of person we need.

Kevin

Am I to assume you are waiting for others to do all the path clearing and then after you determine the waters to be safe, you'll move? If the FSP doesn't work, you would have lost nothing, but if it is a success then you were the first 1000 signed up, right? Win win huh? 
My town is getting over run buy Massachusetts liberals ( theres a joke in words) that get involved to change NH to what they ran away from. How does someone out of state help change NH government to a libertarian way of thinking? How can you help my town, or any town, living miles away from NH ?  My opinion is if you want to see a change, then be a part of it now.
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Dreepa

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2006, 07:09:08 am »


Am I to assume you are waiting for others to do all the path clearing and then after you determine the waters to be safe, you'll move? If the FSP doesn't work, you would have lost nothing, but if it is a success then you were the first 1000 signed up, right? Win win huh? 
My town is getting over run buy Massachusetts liberals ( theres a joke in words) that get involved to change NH to what they ran away from. How does someone out of state help change NH government to a libertarian way of thinking? How can you help my town, or any town, living miles away from NH ?  My opinion is if you want to see a change, then be a part of it now.
Kevin can defend himself but....
Kevin's letter was read by his future NH Senator on the floor of the debate on HB1177 (Smoking Ban).  Kevin is NOT waiting for others to clear his path.  Kevin has a work related issue that is keeping him in TX longer.  Kevin follows what is going on in NH more than some people in NH.

/soapbox
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John C

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2006, 09:26:54 am »


Am I to assume you are waiting for others to do all the path clearing and then after you determine the waters to be safe, you'll move? If the FSP doesn't work, you would have lost nothing, but if it is a success then you were the first 1000 signed up, right? Win win huh? 
My town is getting over run buy Massachusetts liberals ( theres a joke in words) that get involved to change NH to what they ran away from. How does someone out of state help change NH government to a libertarian way of thinking? How can you help my town, or any town, living miles away from NH ?  My opinion is if you want to see a change, then be a part of it now.
Kevin can defend himself but....
Kevin's letter was read by his future NH Senator on the floor of the debate on HB1177 (Smoking Ban).  Kevin is NOT waiting for others to clear his path.  Kevin has a work related issue that is keeping him in TX longer.  Kevin follows what is going on in NH more than some people in NH.

/soapbox

Then that's great. No disrespect intended. We need people to get involved.
I just here a lot of talk from people about "some day". The time is now! Not 10 years from now, when the movement fizzles out because everyone was waiting ten years.
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Denis Goddard

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2006, 04:32:36 pm »

Then that's great. No disrespect intended. We need people to get involved.
I just here a lot of talk from people about "some day". The time is now! Not 10 years from now, when the movement fizzles out because everyone was waiting ten years.
I hear ya and I agree, JohnC. I've heard our affliction called "Early Mover's Disease", and like yourself, it's caused me to exchange harsh words with people who really have helped a lot that I should not have been putting down.

I say, nothing succeeeds like success, and the best advertising is simply having a better product.
New Hampshire is that better product.

I like to remind people that they can go to PorcFest and "try before they buy".
Come get surrounded with hundreds of other people who share your pro-Freedom views, and are actually scoring victories; you'll be making moving plans before the end of the second day!

Now, everyone who'se not here, get off yer asses and get over here ASAP!
:D

KBCraig

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2006, 10:17:52 am »

Am I to assume you are waiting for others to do all the path clearing and then after you determine the waters to be safe, you'll move?

Dreepa responded quite well while I was away for the weekend. Thanks!

No, I'm not waiting for someone to clear the path. When I advise moving as soon as you can, I know that many people, like myself, just simply can't move right now. I'll be there in two-three years by my current schedule, or tomorrow if I hit the lottery. That's life.

One of the really funny arguments I've actually seen is that people should not move until we hit 20k, and the early movers shouldn't talk so much about NH. Huh?  ??? Isn't NH the goal and destination?

Kevin
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Philly Dave

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Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
« Reply #59 on: January 31, 2007, 05:12:05 pm »

Hi All,

Phoenix AZ here.

I have been following the FSP with interest for some time and have lurked around your site some as well.

New Hampshire has long been a favorite of mine (I used to take yearly trips to hike and ski Mt. Washington when I was younger). At one point last year I even started looking at house prices and possible job oppurtunities in NH.

For personal reasons I am not ready to comitt, but have been looking for a good excuse to take a closer look. I am happy to say that I just signed up for the Liberty Forum next month and got my airfare and hotel all booked.

SO I just wanted to say Hi.

Dave
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